Fish Skin Grips on British Swords?

Jim McDougall · 12th July 2020, 05:48 PM

It seems to me that the use of rayskin (often termed shagreen in Europe) was likely derived from grip covering styles used in Eastern Europe in 17th-18th c.
Most well known were the Tatar sabres known as 'ordynka' which often sported this grip covering in the 17th c. using rayskin ( described in "Origins of the Polish Saber, Jan Ostrowski, 1979).

British military were considerably influenced by Eastern fashions and may have adopted use of rayskin via their contacts with these forces as allies in various circumstances. British basket hilts of 17th-18th c. are seen with this grip cover as shown.

Earlier use of rayskin as a grip cover than 17th c. is unclear, but as it had Asian foundation likely carried into Tatar spheres, it seems possible use in Chinese context may have been earlier.

Bryce · 13th July 2020, 12:11 AM

G'day Cathey,
I don't know when it was first used, but I can tell you there were two types used on British swords. In the 18th century the "ray skin" type with large nodules was commonly used. Below is a picture of a 1788 heavy cavalry officer sword with this type of grip. In the 19th century it was more common to use the close grained variety you show in your photo, although occasionally the "ray skin" type was also used. I have never been sure if both types come from different areas of the same type of ray, or if the close grained type is from a shark rather than ray.

Cheers,
Bryce

fernando · 13th July 2020, 11:39 AM

So, if i get it, a bit of a puzzle is the association of shagreen ( from Turc çagri = onager's back) with wfish (ray or shark) skin. While it appears (to me), that fish skin was used in European swords, in Asia was shagreen that was used in weapons like Japanese Nihontó and Chinese composite bows during the King dinasty, this being therefore quite a few centuries old fashion.

13th July 2020, 12:11 AM	#2
Bryce Member Join Date: Aug 2017 Location: North Queensland, Australia Posts: 189	G'day Cathey, I don't know when it was first used, but I can tell you there were two types used on British swords. In the 18th century the "ray skin" type with large nodules was commonly used. Below is a picture of a 1788 heavy cavalry officer sword with this type of grip. In the 19th century it was more common to use the close grained variety you show in your photo, although occasionally the "ray skin" type was also used. I have never been sure if both types come from different areas of the same type of ray, or if the close grained type is from a shark rather than ray. Cheers, Bryce Attached Images

12th July 2020, 05:48 PM	#1
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,585	It seems to me that the use of rayskin (often termed shagreen in Europe) was likely derived from grip covering styles used in Eastern Europe in 17th-18th c. Most well known were the Tatar sabres known as 'ordynka' which often sported this grip covering in the 17th c. using rayskin ( described in "Origins of the Polish Saber, Jan Ostrowski, 1979). British military were considerably influenced by Eastern fashions and may have adopted use of rayskin via their contacts with these forces as allies in various circumstances. British basket hilts of 17th-18th c. are seen with this grip cover as shown. Earlier use of rayskin as a grip cover than 17th c. is unclear, but as it had Asian foundation likely carried into Tatar spheres, it seems possible use in Chinese context may have been earlier.

13th July 2020, 11:39 AM	#3
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	So, if i get it, a bit of a puzzle is the association of shagreen ( from Turc çagri = onager's back) with wfish (ray or shark) skin. While it appears (to me), that fish skin was used in European swords, in Asia was shagreen that was used in weapons like Japanese Nihontó and Chinese composite bows during the King dinasty, this being therefore quite a few centuries old fashion.