An extremely unique Indopersian double bladed short sword, ID berde!

mariusgmioc · 10th July 2020, 07:15 AM

To me, this looks like a very recent fantasy weapon.

Absolutely not practical as it cannot provide a stable grip.

manishkulkarni · 10th July 2020, 03:39 PM

Thanks guys, apreciate your comments! Although a bit startled that you don't assess this as belonging to 19th century. I acquired this from Lanes Armoury which apparently is an old and very respected business operated by two brothers who're well-known experts. I've the CoA however doesn't state the era but does mention Indonesian. I spoke with one of the partners and their view is late 19th century and they bought it as part of a collection from an old english family.

{Links to sellers' pages with active items listed are not allowed.}

Oh well, I'll keep hold of it, an unusual contraption and I don't believe these guys would sell fakes being in the business for some 50 yrs!

Tim Simmons · 11th July 2020, 01:55 PM

http://www.thelanesarmoury.co.uk/

probably best to make no comments.

mariusgmioc · 11th July 2020, 04:10 PM

Hello Tim,

I am afraid I do not understand what you mean?!

drac2k · 11th July 2020, 04:14 PM

As a hand weapon, it looks impractical, however, I could see it as an "Indonesian-ish," spearhead; does it look like it had a provision in the past to secure it to a haft before being modified?

francantolin · 11th July 2020, 08:26 PM

Hello,

maybe a modified spearhead like this one,
or a fantasy dagger ( with the easy finger cut as Ariel said...)

Rick · 11th July 2020, 09:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tim Simmons

http://www.thelanesarmoury.co.uk/

probably best to make no comments.

Agree with you, Tim.

Ian · 12th July 2020, 03:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tim Simmons

http://www.thelanesarmoury.co.uk/

probably best to make no comments.

Yes, good choice Tim.

thinreadline · 12th July 2020, 08:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ian

Yes, good choice Tim.

Quite so !

David · 12th July 2020, 04:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by manishkulkarni

Oh well, I'll keep hold of it, an unusual contraption and I don't believe these guys would sell fakes being in the business for some 50 yrs!

There is a big difference between intentionally selling fakes and being terribly misinformed about what you are selling. The one thing i will say about the sellers is that they do not seem to specialize or even focus on Indo-persian edged weapons so their expertise in this genre of collecting has certainly not been established.
As has already been pointed out, this would be a very impractical weapon. If it looked like there was once a way to attach this to a shaft to be used as a spear that might make some sense, but as a hand weapon this would undoubtably be a failure in design.Though it appears to be well made i personally would lean towards late 20th century fantasy weapon. Sorry. It's not really a matter of the respectability of the sellers as much as simple observation and simple logic of how hand weapons work (or don't in this case) that lead me to this assessment.

Oliver Pinchot · 12th July 2020, 05:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

There is a big difference between intentionally selling fakes and being terribly misinformed about what you are selling. The one thing i will say about the sellers is that they do not seem to specialize or even focus on Indo-persian edged weapons so their expertise in this genre of collecting has certainly not been established.
As has already been pointed out, this would be a very impractical weapon. If it looked like there was once a way to attach this to a shaft to be used as a spear that might make some sense, but as a hand weapon this would undoubtably be a failure in design.Though it appears to be well made i personally would lean towards late 20th century fantasy weapon. Sorry. It's not really a matter of the respectability of the sellers as much as simple observation and simple logic of how hand weapons work (or don't in this case) that lead me to this assessment.

Standing ovation, David.

Manishkukarni, imagine how helpful it would have been if you had allowed us to see the whole object instead of your hand and same.

kronckew · 12th July 2020, 06:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oliver Pinchot

Standing ovation, David.

Manishkukarni, imagine how helpful it would have been if you had allowed us to see the whole object instead of your hand and same.

...or in addition to, rather than instead of... You can of course still add another photo to improve the thread.

(I also gree it appears to be a modern fantasy piece and awkward to use in combat.)

manishkulkarni · 17th July 2020, 02:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

There is a big difference between intentionally selling fakes and being terribly misinformed about what you are selling. The one thing i will say about the sellers is that they do not seem to specialize or even focus on Indo-persian edged weapons so their expertise in this genre of collecting has certainly not been established.
As has already been pointed out, this would be a very impractical weapon. If it looked like there was once a way to attach this to a shaft to be used as a spear that might make some sense, but as a hand weapon this would undoubtably be a failure in design.Though it appears to be well made i personally would lean towards late 20th century fantasy weapon. Sorry. It's not really a matter of the respectability of the sellers as much as simple observation and simple logic of how hand weapons work (or don't in this case) that lead me to this assessment.

All and David in particular, many thanks for your insight and understood - it still leaves me very disappointed if this is late 20th rather than late 19th as claimed by the dealer. Unfortunately the week's return warranty has passed so not much hope of asking a refund I guess...

Here're some more close-ups and I see absolutely no sign of a joint or this previously being mount atop a spear.

Ian · 18th July 2020, 01:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by manishkulkarni

... Unfortunately the week's return warranty has passed so not much hope of asking a refund I guess ...

Always worth asking. This piece was most likely made in Rajastan where a lot of reproduction, reassembled, and fantasy pieces are fabricated. Lahore is another possibility. The cast brass "handle" is of low quality, with many small defects from casting flaws, another indicator of likely recent manufacture.

Jim McDougall · 18th July 2020, 03:34 PM

This is an intriguing and tempting item, and with the considerable innovation in Indian weaponry it is always difficult to resist something which seems viable but falls outside the realm of actually usable arms.
I totally agree with David's well stated observations on the very familiar circumstances collectors often face, and other great insights here on this.

One wonders if this is a modern interpretation of an actual older weapon, and that does seem plausible as with the dual blade polearm shown.

As Ian has noted there is considerable industry in India producing modern pieces of these kinds of variety, and while the obvious consideration is for the souvenir trade, it does some that many items might have potential for the pageantry in traditional ceremonies in India.

Whether an actual weapon or not, the item is attractive and interesting with those factors considered, so while lesson learned, still not total loss.
We've likely all gone through these 'disappointments'

Henk · 18th July 2020, 03:35 PM

The close up of the handle says enough.

kronckew · 18th July 2020, 05:33 PM

Yes, that casting seam clinches the argument. I hope that's your photo, not one of the vendor's - he might try saying you should have known from his photo...

The law in the UK gives you 30 days to return an item for refund,

From sale of goods act 2015:

"Under the Consumer Rights Act 0f 2015 you have a legal right to reject goods that are of unsatisfactory quality, unfit for purpose or not as described, and get a full refund - as long as you do this quickly. This right is limited to 30 days from the date you take ownership of your product."

If it was an online purchase, you may have further rights.

Always buy by credit card where possible, they give you 60 days to claim and get your money back, then the fight the vendor to reimburse the CC company.

The vendor cannot remove these rights by clauses in their 'Terms and Conditions'. Weasel words like 'sold as seen' or attempts to delay or avoid responsibility for falsely describing an item do not remove your rights. The description may have untruths in it, but that's for your vendor to take up with them that sold it to them. Of course, if you are from outside the UK, getting redress may be difficult if the vendor chooses to ignore you. Hiring a lawyer remotely would be expensive, and hiring a Baliff to actually collect on any court judgement might also be a headache (tho the vendor have to pay the fees). All in all, if the item was not very expensive, you might have to bite the bullet & chalk it up to experience as a learning episode. As noted, ALL of us have an OOPS corner or closet for memory stimulants, or for resale (just be sure to call it a replica or fantasy item and avoid calling it an antique).

10th July 2020, 03:39 PM	#2
manishkulkarni Member Join Date: Mar 2019 Posts: 20	Thanks guys, apreciate your comments! Although a bit startled that you don't assess this as belonging to 19th century. I acquired this from Lanes Armoury which apparently is an old and very respected business operated by two brothers who're well-known experts. I've the CoA however doesn't state the era but does mention Indonesian. I spoke with one of the partners and their view is late 19th century and they bought it as part of a collection from an old english family. {Links to sellers' pages with active items listed are not allowed.} Oh well, I'll keep hold of it, an unusual contraption and I don't believe these guys would sell fakes being in the business for some 50 yrs! Last edited by Rick; 12th July 2020 at 09:03 PM. Reason: commercial link

11th July 2020, 08:26 PM	#6
francantolin Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Posts: 905	Hello, maybe a modified spearhead like this one, or a fantasy dagger ( with the easy finger cut as Ariel said...) Attached Images

10th July 2020, 07:15 AM	#1
mariusgmioc Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: Austria Posts: 1,906	To me, this looks like a very recent fantasy weapon. Absolutely not practical as it cannot provide a stable grip.

11th July 2020, 01:55 PM	#3
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,842	http://www.thelanesarmoury.co.uk/ probably best to make no comments.

11th July 2020, 04:10 PM	#4
mariusgmioc Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: Austria Posts: 1,906	Hello Tim, I am afraid I do not understand what you mean?!

11th July 2020, 04:14 PM	#5
drac2k Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 1,255	As a hand weapon, it looks impractical, however, I could see it as an "Indonesian-ish," spearhead; does it look like it had a provision in the past to secure it to a haft before being modified?

18th July 2020, 03:34 PM	#15
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,189	This is an intriguing and tempting item, and with the considerable innovation in Indian weaponry it is always difficult to resist something which seems viable but falls outside the realm of actually usable arms. I totally agree with David's well stated observations on the very familiar circumstances collectors often face, and other great insights here on this. One wonders if this is a modern interpretation of an actual older weapon, and that does seem plausible as with the dual blade polearm shown. As Ian has noted there is considerable industry in India producing modern pieces of these kinds of variety, and while the obvious consideration is for the souvenir trade, it does some that many items might have potential for the pageantry in traditional ceremonies in India. Whether an actual weapon or not, the item is attractive and interesting with those factors considered, so while lesson learned, still not total loss. We've likely all gone through these 'disappointments'

18th July 2020, 03:35 PM	#16
Henk Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,209	The close up of the handle says enough.

18th July 2020, 05:33 PM	#17
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,215	Yes, that casting seam clinches the argument. I hope that's your photo, not one of the vendor's - he might try saying you should have known from his photo... The law in the UK gives you 30 days to return an item for refund, From sale of goods act 2015: "Under the Consumer Rights Act 0f 2015 you have a legal right to reject goods that are of unsatisfactory quality, unfit for purpose or not as described, and get a full refund - as long as you do this quickly. This right is limited to 30 days from the date you take ownership of your product." If it was an online purchase, you may have further rights. Always buy by credit card where possible, they give you 60 days to claim and get your money back, then the fight the vendor to reimburse the CC company. The vendor cannot remove these rights by clauses in their 'Terms and Conditions'. Weasel words like 'sold as seen' or attempts to delay or avoid responsibility for falsely describing an item do not remove your rights. The description may have untruths in it, but that's for your vendor to take up with them that sold it to them. Of course, if you are from outside the UK, getting redress may be difficult if the vendor chooses to ignore you. Hiring a lawyer remotely would be expensive, and hiring a Baliff to actually collect on any court judgement might also be a headache (tho the vendor have to pay the fees). All in all, if the item was not very expensive, you might have to bite the bullet & chalk it up to experience as a learning episode. As noted, ALL of us have an OOPS corner or closet for memory stimulants, or for resale (just be sure to call it a replica or fantasy item and avoid calling it an antique).