Curved Swords In India Before The Talwar, 2nd Century BC, India

Ian · 4th July 2020, 05:17 AM

Please see my edit of your post. Ian

Milogow360 · 4th July 2020, 06:35 AM

I will post similar images for classical Indian broadswords - ancestors of the Khanda, etc. And forward curved swords which most likely were influenced by the Greek Kopis. Both of these types were used all over India in various shapes like the talwar would in medieval India.

Unlike the backward curved blades shown here the long broad swords and forward curved blades have artistic line, and a lineage right from the Maurya, post Maurya period, right to modern times with Sikhs, Marathas, Gorkhas, etc. and everything inbetween. Including many of you Indian arms collectors.

A interesting thing I noted is no matter the hilt design, the design of the sword(forward curved, sickle, leaf blade, long sword round tip, etc.), Indian doctrine preferred a short, tight handle. This is the case even after the Islamic C. Asian invasions and it has been the case since surviving Indian art.

ariel · 4th July 2020, 06:50 AM

What is the source of those images?

Milogow360 · 4th July 2020, 06:58 AM

Deccan Satavahanas - One of the successors of the Mauryas.

You can see the swordmen has a curved saber.

Bhaja Caves, 2nd Century BC.

Milogow360 · 4th July 2020, 07:04 AM

Kalingas - One of the successors of the Mauryas.

One of the main enemies of the Mauryas. You can say they have a relationship like the Mughals-Marathas had much later on.

Udayagiri Caves, 2nd-1st Century BC.

On a side note -- When it comes to classical India, you will commonly see female warriors. This is mentioned by the Greek ambassador to the Maurya court Megasthenes and supported by artistic evidence.

Milogow360 · 4th July 2020, 03:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

What is the source of those images?

https://www.sylph-ocular.com/t49#12

https://www.sylph-ocular.com/ck

There a lot of terracotta and ivory works showing daily village, court, etc. life. It's a interesting look into ancient India. Militaristic images are very rare though.

The mounted examples

Chandraketugarh, Sunga Empire, 2nd Century BC, India

The dwarf with a backward curved dagger

Nagarjunakonda, Deccan Ikshvaku, 3rd–4th-century AD

ariel · 4th July 2020, 03:46 PM

Thanks a lot!
Extremely interesting!

ariel · 4th July 2020, 04:46 PM

As to the swordsman in your post #5: because of the state of preservation, I cannot see the curvature:-(

But what I find even more interesting, his sword seems to have a D-guard ( my imagination?).
We believe that D-guards came to India with Europeans. But Elgood, in his Hindu book, shows stone carvings of warriors carrying D-guarded swords allegedly dated to the 11th century( p.79). One image( 8.1) shows a slightly curved blade. Elgood, being an extremely careful professional, wanted additional confirmation, preferably actual examples before correcting the history.

Milogow360 · 5th July 2020, 01:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

As to the swordsman in your post #5: because of the state of preservation, I cannot see the curvature:-(

But what I find even more interesting, his sword seems to have a D-guard ( my imagination?).
We believe that D-guards came to India with Europeans. But Elgood, in his Hindu book, shows stone carvings of warriors carrying D-guarded swords allegedly dated to the 11th century( p.79). One image( 8.1) shows a slightly curved blade. Elgood, being an extremely careful professional, wanted additional confirmation, preferably actual examples before correcting the history.

I see what you're looking at and it's the first time I've seen it. You got my head tilted looking at it.

But I dont think it is. Hypothetical if it is or if I find a very early sample of a hand guard it's a extreme outlier(weird outliers do exist) and made no difference to the Indian sword evolution over the years.

I would like to see the source of the 11th century examples, oldest I've seen are from the Akbar/Mughal-Deccan Sultanates-Vijayanagara. All this time the Portuguese have a strong influence on the horse trade, artillery, small firearms, and probably to an extent swords. Especially in the south in small rich port cities like Calicut and very important imperial ones like Vijayanagara. I've not found one hand guard in the southern predecessors of the Vijayanagara, Hoysalas - who are pretty much isolated from Euro, etc. contact.

So the short answer, yeah, I do believe it's a European influence as well.

ariel · 5th July 2020, 06:12 PM

I am hesitant about the images in your post #1. The degree of preservation, the perfectly smooth surfaces, the sophistication of the details and the general artistic level do not seem to be compatible with the purported age and the materiel ( stone carving). Are those later renditions?

If you do not have Elgood’s book “ Hindu arms and ritual” where the 11th century are from, I shall photograph the page and post it sometimes today.

4th July 2020, 06:35 AM	#2
Milogow360 Member Join Date: Jul 2020 Posts: 18	I will post similar images for classical Indian broadswords - ancestors of the Khanda, etc. And forward curved swords which most likely were influenced by the Greek Kopis. Both of these types were used all over India in various shapes like the talwar would in medieval India. Unlike the backward curved blades shown here the long broad swords and forward curved blades have artistic line, and a lineage right from the Maurya, post Maurya period, right to modern times with Sikhs, Marathas, Gorkhas, etc. and everything inbetween. Including many of you Indian arms collectors. A interesting thing I noted is no matter the hilt design, the design of the sword(forward curved, sickle, leaf blade, long sword round tip, etc.), Indian doctrine preferred a short, tight handle. This is the case even after the Islamic C. Asian invasions and it has been the case since surviving Indian art. Last edited by Milogow360; 4th July 2020 at 04:01 PM.

4th July 2020, 06:58 AM	#4
Milogow360 Member Join Date: Jul 2020 Posts: 18	Deccan Satavahanas - One of the successors of the Mauryas. You can see the swordmen has a curved saber. Bhaja Caves, 2nd Century BC. Attached Images Last edited by Milogow360; 4th July 2020 at 04:33 PM.

4th July 2020, 04:46 PM	#8
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	As to the swordsman in your post #5: because of the state of preservation, I cannot see the curvature:-( But what I find even more interesting, his sword seems to have a D-guard ( my imagination?). We believe that D-guards came to India with Europeans. But Elgood, in his Hindu book, shows stone carvings of warriors carrying D-guarded swords allegedly dated to the 11th century( p.79). One image( 8.1) shows a slightly curved blade. Elgood, being an extremely careful professional, wanted additional confirmation, preferably actual examples before correcting the history. Last edited by ariel; 4th July 2020 at 05:13 PM.

4th July 2020, 05:17 AM	#1
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,361	Moderators comment: Uploaded pictures required ... Please see my edit of your post. Ian

4th July 2020, 06:50 AM	#3
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	What is the source of those images?

4th July 2020, 07:04 AM	#5
Milogow360 Member Join Date: Jul 2020 Posts: 18	Kalingas - One of the successors of the Mauryas. One of the main enemies of the Mauryas. You can say they have a relationship like the Mughals-Marathas had much later on. Udayagiri Caves, 2nd-1st Century BC. On a side note -- When it comes to classical India, you will commonly see female warriors. This is mentioned by the Greek ambassador to the Maurya court Megasthenes and supported by artistic evidence. Attached Images Last edited by Milogow360; 4th July 2020 at 03:53 PM.

4th July 2020, 03:46 PM	#7
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Thanks a lot! Extremely interesting!

5th July 2020, 06:12 PM	#10
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	I am hesitant about the images in your post #1. The degree of preservation, the perfectly smooth surfaces, the sophistication of the details and the general artistic level do not seem to be compatible with the purported age and the materiel ( stone carving). Are those later renditions? If you do not have Elgood’s book “ Hindu arms and ritual” where the 11th century are from, I shall photograph the page and post it sometimes today.