Spanish Dirk?

midelburgo · 3rd July 2020, 11:44 AM

I think it could be Spanish, but this or the one in the book are not naval, they are rather civilian weapons, possibly from Albacete. Smiths from Albacete could establish themselves in other places and work the same ways.

Thay have a museum there.

http://www.museocuchilleria.es/coleccion-jose-falcao/

http://armasblancas.es/index.php/com...lcazar-sarrion

Richard G · 3rd July 2020, 12:15 PM

I have a suspicion it is a spear head repurposed. If so I would go for the Philippine option.
Regards
Richard

M ELEY · 4th July 2020, 03:55 AM

Hello Richard. I also had wondered about a repurposed spear-head, but was afraid to propose it as it is not my area of expertise. I've had a dagger fashioned from a Malay spear-head and I know such weapons exist.

carlos · 4th July 2020, 09:51 AM

My first impression was filipino origen, the spanish dagger. mainly from the Albacete city, have different guards.
Thanks
Carlos

shayde78 · 5th July 2020, 04:27 AM

Some very compelling insights - thank you everyone! my inability to clearly classify this feels validated

The hilt still looks Spanish to me, but the idea of the blade being a spear head bears consideration. The overall profile does look like certain tombaks, although that would correspond with a broader Indonesian origin. I tend to see these with distinct pamour, but I'm certain many were forged of homogeneous steel.

Another thought that occurred to me - this would probably serve the purpose of a marlin spike. The mighty Wikipedia states these could be over 12" in length and would double as an offensive weapon, when needed. In this case, a dagger that could be used for marline rope work, rather than a spike being used as an improvised weapon.

Thanks again, and I'm curious to see how this conversation progresses. If the consensus builds that this is not European, I'm gonna with this being moved over to the Ethno section.

M ELEY · 5th July 2020, 08:48 AM

Exactly, Shayde, concerning origin. You are right about the tombak and the beautiful pamour to those spear heads. I also agree concerning the Spanish Albacete style hilt, but with Spanish and Portuguese colonialism and presence in so many of these areas (Philippines, Indonesia, Brunai, etc), a marriage of blade and hilt is not unheard-of. Marlin spikes, whale blubber knives, belay pins, etc, all made great weapons in a fight on the deck. The late, great Gilkerson mentions as much and includes examples of such usage during boardings. I am also curious to see where this artifact will lead us next!

Richard G · 6th July 2020, 12:35 PM

Look at the bundiak spear just posted on the Ethnographic forum.
Regards
Richard

fernando · 23rd July 2020, 01:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shayde78

If the consensus builds that this is not European, I'm gonna with this being moved over to the Ethno section.

Rob, if you wish this thread to be moved over to Ethno or if you want it to be copied over there (without leaving here), just say it.
By the way, if i may reveal my impressions, the shape of your 'dagger's' grip only by coincidence resembles those from Albacete; but i may be talking nonsense.
In the attached work, which you can find in free PDF format in the Net (to heavy too upload here), even not knowing Spanish, you will have an idea of how these handles are shaped ... and built.

.

shayde78 · 23rd July 2020, 09:06 PM

Thank you, Philip and Fernando. Again, my attribution of this piece to Spain was based upon the hilt bearing similarities to other knives made in the region, including the example I provided from the reference book. Nothing matched entirely, which is why I wanted to seek feedback here.

I'm grateful if this thread could be copied onto the Ethnographic forum. I still have yet to see a spear that matches this profile, but someone there likely has, and can narrow down an origin. I've yet to be convinced it isn't European in origin, so copying it to the other forum may provide that evidence. So,a s I type that, I'm thinking it doesn't make sense to have two threads. So, perhaps it could be moved and, if a non-European origin isn't established, we could discuss moving it back here. I'll let you, as a moderator, decide what is best.

Philip, I agree it is a long shot, and the similarities are not extensive, BUT the profile of the pugio does indeed have some parallels to the dagger in question. In fact, more so than anything else I've been able to find, at least regarding the junction with the hilt and the concave ricasso. Great point to make, even if there is no direct link, it is interesting to see certain forms represented/repeated on disparate pieces.

Thanks again

3rd July 2020, 11:44 AM	#1
midelburgo Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 263	I think it could be Spanish, but this or the one in the book are not naval, they are rather civilian weapons, possibly from Albacete. Smiths from Albacete could establish themselves in other places and work the same ways. Thay have a museum there. http://www.museocuchilleria.es/coleccion-jose-falcao/ http://armasblancas.es/index.php/com...lcazar-sarrion Last edited by midelburgo; 3rd July 2020 at 11:54 AM.

3rd July 2020, 12:15 PM	#2
Richard G Member Join Date: Jan 2012 Posts: 409	I have a suspicion it is a spear head repurposed. If so I would go for the Philippine option. Regards Richard

4th July 2020, 03:55 AM	#3
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,141	Hello Richard. I also had wondered about a repurposed spear-head, but was afraid to propose it as it is not my area of expertise. I've had a dagger fashioned from a Malay spear-head and I know such weapons exist.

4th July 2020, 09:51 AM	#4
carlos Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 748	My first impression was filipino origen, the spanish dagger. mainly from the Albacete city, have different guards. Thanks Carlos

5th July 2020, 04:27 AM	#5
shayde78 Member Join Date: Mar 2017 Posts: 445	Some very compelling insights - thank you everyone! my inability to clearly classify this feels validated The hilt still looks Spanish to me, but the idea of the blade being a spear head bears consideration. The overall profile does look like certain tombaks, although that would correspond with a broader Indonesian origin. I tend to see these with distinct pamour, but I'm certain many were forged of homogeneous steel. Another thought that occurred to me - this would probably serve the purpose of a marlin spike. The mighty Wikipedia states these could be over 12" in length and would double as an offensive weapon, when needed. In this case, a dagger that could be used for marline rope work, rather than a spike being used as an improvised weapon. Thanks again, and I'm curious to see how this conversation progresses. If the consensus builds that this is not European, I'm gonna with this being moved over to the Ethno section.

5th July 2020, 08:48 AM	#6
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,141	Exactly, Shayde, concerning origin. You are right about the tombak and the beautiful pamour to those spear heads. I also agree concerning the Spanish Albacete style hilt, but with Spanish and Portuguese colonialism and presence in so many of these areas (Philippines, Indonesia, Brunai, etc), a marriage of blade and hilt is not unheard-of. Marlin spikes, whale blubber knives, belay pins, etc, all made great weapons in a fight on the deck. The late, great Gilkerson mentions as much and includes examples of such usage during boardings. I am also curious to see where this artifact will lead us next!

6th July 2020, 12:35 PM	#7
Richard G Member Join Date: Jan 2012 Posts: 409	Look at the bundiak spear just posted on the Ethnographic forum. Regards Richard

23rd July 2020, 09:06 PM	#9
shayde78 Member Join Date: Mar 2017 Posts: 445	Thank you, Philip and Fernando. Again, my attribution of this piece to Spain was based upon the hilt bearing similarities to other knives made in the region, including the example I provided from the reference book. Nothing matched entirely, which is why I wanted to seek feedback here. I'm grateful if this thread could be copied onto the Ethnographic forum. I still have yet to see a spear that matches this profile, but someone there likely has, and can narrow down an origin. I've yet to be convinced it isn't European in origin, so copying it to the other forum may provide that evidence. So,a s I type that, I'm thinking it doesn't make sense to have two threads. So, perhaps it could be moved and, if a non-European origin isn't established, we could discuss moving it back here. I'll let you, as a moderator, decide what is best. Philip, I agree it is a long shot, and the similarities are not extensive, BUT the profile of the pugio does indeed have some parallels to the dagger in question. In fact, more so than anything else I've been able to find, at least regarding the junction with the hilt and the concave ricasso. Great point to make, even if there is no direct link, it is interesting to see certain forms represented/repeated on disparate pieces. Thanks again