An Haussa takouba

Yvain · 25th May 2020, 07:17 PM

Hi Theodor,

What makes you think that ? It was most likely cleaned indeed, hence the "new and shiny" look of the brass, but otherwise it is stylistically similar to known example from the end of the XIXth / very early XXth century, while more recent takouba (post 1940 / 50) have a really distinct style.

The pommel and the blade could indeed be older, but I don't think the rest of the fittings are that recent either.

(And I do understand it wasn't really unique, but to me it was a really appealing, harmonious, sword; perhaps because I practice HEMA, and appreciate how effective or balanced a weapon might look

)

EDIT : I also have seen takouba where the pommel was treated (maybe oil blackened) to give it a darker finish than the rest of the hilt, which could be the case here.

TVV · 26th May 2020, 12:18 AM

Apart from lacking patina, the fittings seem off compared to fittings on older takouba. I believe the sword in this thread is a 19th century blade and pommel, with the hilt and scabbard restored more recently in an attempt to emulate older work, but as usual, it is impossible for modern craftsmen to get it perfectly right, unless they are extremely specialized in antique weapons such as Phillip Tom for example. I can guarantee you that 19th century leather from the Sahel would not look this well preserved either.

Teodor

Yvain · 26th May 2020, 01:31 AM

Interesting, what date would you attribute to the fittings and scabbard ? And why do you think someone would try to emulate older style takouba ? That would be the first one I see one trying to look older than it is

TVV · 26th May 2020, 04:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yvain

Interesting, what date would you attribute to the fittings and scabbard ? And why do you think someone would try to emulate older style takouba ? That would be the first one I see one trying to look older than it is

Since takoubas are still in use, not as weapons but more as part of male attire, in certain parts of the Sahel, it may have been refitted for someone to wear. Or alternatively, it may have been refitted to make it more appealing to someone looking for a souvenir. Only whoever did it knows for certain.

My guess for the age of the scabbard and fittings is the last few decades.

Martin Lubojacky · 26th May 2020, 08:49 AM

Yes, takoubas are in use - as a part of national costume.... The scabbard itself, the leather part, is "old". I think I can say this as I saw production of "new" scabbards in that region ago.

Re. the fittings I don´t know.

But it is questionable, as far as African artefacts generally are concerned, what to consider "old" and what is "new". You cannot compare it with European antiquities. Old in Africa (from collector´s point of view) means decades. If it is more then hundred years, it is nearly a rarity. If they get used to something nice/old and they don´t wont to get rid of it, they don´t hesitate to repair this nice "old thing" (e.g. coming from fifties) with plasitc in seventies and the museum takes it as an artefact documenting tribal life in 2020.

Jim McDougall · 26th May 2020, 09:11 PM

I very much agree with Teodor and as Martin has well put, the connotation of 'old' is quite broadly interpreted and generally is just decades as noted.
The thing to consider with these weapons of North Africa, especially the takouba, is that they are highly commercialized as souvenirs in the well developed markets of tourism and business.

These swords, while considered regular tribal accouterments still in modern times, like many ethnographic contexts, they are worn knowing they will likely be sold to visitors seeking souvenirs. These then are simply replaced until again sold.

Takouba were typically constantly remounted and with new components especially as they changed hands. This is why so many extremely old blades were once found in them, some hundreds of years old.

In this example the blade is clearly native made, and as noted, likely late 19th c. to early 20th, copying the early 'masri' blades which were indeed made by Hausa smiths. Interestingly this blade does not have the 'dukari' (half moons) characteristic of these blades.

Also, as noted, the brass mounts on this are simply pierced, not tooled,and seem quite modern, contrary to early mounts, which even cleaned carry the character of age in various ways.

Obviously, as with most ethnographic weapons, traditional styles are maintained not only for generations, but many centuries. That is why modern versions of these weapons are produced, and souvenir hunters seek them as similar to those seen in collections etc.

There are some takouba which are genuine heirlooms which many Tuareg, especially elders, will NOT part with. These are the ones which invariably seem to have VERY old blades and sometimes mounts......but the leather almost never is old.............in the Sahara, not too durable.

Yvain · 27th May 2020, 06:12 PM

This as evolved into a very interesting conversation thanks to you all ! I thought that modern takouba where almost always of "modern" style, and had never seen before an attempt at emulating an older style.

It seems to me that modern (post-WW2) tuareg takouba are very distinct from the older ones, so is the imitation of an older style specifically an Hausa practice or is there also fairly recent tuareg takouba made in the older style ?

Also, I understand that the pommel and blade on the one I posted are older, but do you think that the new fittings and scabbard were created to be used in situ, or to sell it to visitors ?

Sorry for all the questions, but I really like this type of swords and would love to learn as much as possible about them !

Regarding the blade, it seems like the absence of dukari marks does happen from time to time on wide Hausa blades (for example : http://takouba.org/catalog/index.php...usa-people/132), if I had to hazard a guess, maybe it could be because those blades didn't "pretend" to be of european origin ? (I think I remember reading that the half moon mark was originally stamped on blades by European makers, and was later copied by local smiths to suggest the same quality for their production, but I'm not sure ...)

Finally, while I'm still somewhat sad I didn't get this sword (I still really love the general look of it), I'm glad I didn't overspent on it, thanks for making me feel better about it

26th May 2020, 12:18 AM	#2
TVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bay Area Posts: 1,664	Apart from lacking patina, the fittings seem off compared to fittings on older takouba. I believe the sword in this thread is a 19th century blade and pommel, with the hilt and scabbard restored more recently in an attempt to emulate older work, but as usual, it is impossible for modern craftsmen to get it perfectly right, unless they are extremely specialized in antique weapons such as Phillip Tom for example. I can guarantee you that 19th century leather from the Sahel would not look this well preserved either. Teodor Attached Images

25th May 2020, 07:17 PM	#1
Yvain Member Join Date: May 2017 Location: France Posts: 179	Hi Theodor, What makes you think that ? It was most likely cleaned indeed, hence the "new and shiny" look of the brass, but otherwise it is stylistically similar to known example from the end of the XIXth / very early XXth century, while more recent takouba (post 1940 / 50) have a really distinct style. The pommel and the blade could indeed be older, but I don't think the rest of the fittings are that recent either. (And I do understand it wasn't really unique, but to me it was a really appealing, harmonious, sword; perhaps because I practice HEMA, and appreciate how effective or balanced a weapon might look ) EDIT : I also have seen takouba where the pommel was treated (maybe oil blackened) to give it a darker finish than the rest of the hilt, which could be the case here.

26th May 2020, 01:31 AM	#3
Yvain Member Join Date: May 2017 Location: France Posts: 179	Interesting, what date would you attribute to the fittings and scabbard ? And why do you think someone would try to emulate older style takouba ? That would be the first one I see one trying to look older than it is

26th May 2020, 08:49 AM	#5
Martin Lubojacky Member Join Date: May 2008 Location: Czech Republic Posts: 843	Yes, takoubas are in use - as a part of national costume.... The scabbard itself, the leather part, is "old". I think I can say this as I saw production of "new" scabbards in that region ago. Re. the fittings I don´t know. But it is questionable, as far as African artefacts generally are concerned, what to consider "old" and what is "new". You cannot compare it with European antiquities. Old in Africa (from collector´s point of view) means decades. If it is more then hundred years, it is nearly a rarity. If they get used to something nice/old and they don´t wont to get rid of it, they don´t hesitate to repair this nice "old thing" (e.g. coming from fifties) with plasitc in seventies and the museum takes it as an artefact documenting tribal life in 2020.

26th May 2020, 09:11 PM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,285	I very much agree with Teodor and as Martin has well put, the connotation of 'old' is quite broadly interpreted and generally is just decades as noted. The thing to consider with these weapons of North Africa, especially the takouba, is that they are highly commercialized as souvenirs in the well developed markets of tourism and business. These swords, while considered regular tribal accouterments still in modern times, like many ethnographic contexts, they are worn knowing they will likely be sold to visitors seeking souvenirs. These then are simply replaced until again sold. Takouba were typically constantly remounted and with new components especially as they changed hands. This is why so many extremely old blades were once found in them, some hundreds of years old. In this example the blade is clearly native made, and as noted, likely late 19th c. to early 20th, copying the early 'masri' blades which were indeed made by Hausa smiths. Interestingly this blade does not have the 'dukari' (half moons) characteristic of these blades. Also, as noted, the brass mounts on this are simply pierced, not tooled,and seem quite modern, contrary to early mounts, which even cleaned carry the character of age in various ways. Obviously, as with most ethnographic weapons, traditional styles are maintained not only for generations, but many centuries. That is why modern versions of these weapons are produced, and souvenir hunters seek them as similar to those seen in collections etc. There are some takouba which are genuine heirlooms which many Tuareg, especially elders, will NOT part with. These are the ones which invariably seem to have VERY old blades and sometimes mounts......but the leather almost never is old.............in the Sahara, not too durable.

27th May 2020, 06:12 PM	#7
Yvain Member Join Date: May 2017 Location: France Posts: 179	This as evolved into a very interesting conversation thanks to you all ! I thought that modern takouba where almost always of "modern" style, and had never seen before an attempt at emulating an older style. It seems to me that modern (post-WW2) tuareg takouba are very distinct from the older ones, so is the imitation of an older style specifically an Hausa practice or is there also fairly recent tuareg takouba made in the older style ? Also, I understand that the pommel and blade on the one I posted are older, but do you think that the new fittings and scabbard were created to be used in situ, or to sell it to visitors ? Sorry for all the questions, but I really like this type of swords and would love to learn as much as possible about them ! Regarding the blade, it seems like the absence of dukari marks does happen from time to time on wide Hausa blades (for example : http://takouba.org/catalog/index.php...usa-people/132), if I had to hazard a guess, maybe it could be because those blades didn't "pretend" to be of european origin ? (I think I remember reading that the half moon mark was originally stamped on blades by European makers, and was later copied by local smiths to suggest the same quality for their production, but I'm not sure ...) Finally, while I'm still somewhat sad I didn't get this sword (I still really love the general look of it), I'm glad I didn't overspent on it, thanks for making me feel better about it