Origin of this Yataghan? (With pictures!)

[gp]

and 3 scans from the occupation war in 1878

[gp]

from Bosnia itself a little about the yataghan:

http://h.etf.unsa.ba/btp/content/muz..._eng/about.htm

http://h.etf.unsa.ba/btp/content/muz..._eng/about.htm

[ariel]

Thanks, I was unaware of those publications.
However, none of them have been cited by Astvatsaturian or Yasar either.

As to your statement that Soviet-Yugoslav relations were rosy till the death of Stalin, please re-read your reference: already in 1948 USSR withdrew all her military and civilian advisers from Yugoslavia and in 1949 the antagonism between the two was already fully apparent. Stalin died in 1953.
But be it as it may, Astvatsaturian started her career in the early 50's, and by that time both Yugoslavia and Albania were de facto "traitors " of the Soviet ideology. Contacts with foreign countries were always very limited and difficult for Soviet citizens and collaborations with the " enemies" was practically unheard of. Soviet researchers worked in complete isolation. Add to that their almost universal inability to read and understand foreign languages together with very controlled and limited access to foreign publications even from major libraries, and the picture becomes even more grim.

[gp]

Originally Posted by ariel

Thanks, I was unaware of those publications.
However, none of them have been cited by Astvatsaturian or Yasar either.

You're welcome! Actually this tells more about Astvatsaturian or Yasar...
Although language might also be one botttleneck or showstopper.

But a lot of info (of which many are unaware about untill ones visits the places) can be found locally in Albania, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Bulgaria, Croatia, Greece, Kosovo, Montenegro, Macedonia, Romania and Serbia .


And by the way.... Greek or not to be ( Greek) ?

They all are copies from....

the ILLYRIAN SIKA ☺☼☺

Etymology: Possibly from Proto-Albanian *tsikā (whence Albanian thikë, "dagger, knife"), from Proto-Indo-European *ḱey- ("to sharpen") possibly via Illyrian.
- According to Dictionnaire des Antiquités Grecques et Romaines the name Sica comes from Proto-Indo-European root sek-, meaning "to cut", "to section", however De Vaan declares any connection to Proto-Indo-European *sek- to be formally impossible.

source: Albanian Archaeology 10 August 2019 ·

[Kubur]

Originally Posted by gp

They all are copies from....

the ILLYRIAN SIKA ☺☼☺

Etymology: Possibly from Proto-Albanian *tsikā (whence Albanian thikë, "dagger, knife"), from Proto-Indo-European *ḱey- ("to sharpen") possibly via Illyrian.
·

You are a bit too much Albanian centered...

I will stay with the Greek kopis, same kind of weapon, same period 5 -4 BC, same area...

[gp]

Originally Posted by Kubur

You are a bit too much Albanian centered...

I will stay with the Greek kopis, same kind of weapon, same period 5 -4 BC, same area...

birds of a feather....

but as the Cellts passed through along the Danube...

might the origin not be a Celtic faceta...?

[gp]

jokes aside...

a legal download althoug I am aware that not everybody can read (Serbian) cyrillic, but worthwile nevertheless and recommendable;

"cold weapons of the Ottoman Turcish era: 15-19th century"

https://dlscrib.com/queue/hladno-oru...0d60b4272bb181

another legal download in English from an earlier era :

https://www.academia.edu/496513/Medi...o_Aleksi%C4%87



and some nice pics of an exhibition in Sarajevo:
http://www.novigradsarajevo.ba/news/...1522290?page=4

[TVV]

Originally Posted by gp

the ILLYRIAN SIKA ☺☼☺

You call it Illyrian, I call it Thracian, someone in Romania would probably call it Dacian...

[gp]

Originally Posted by TVV

You call it Illyrian, I call it Thracian, someone in Romania would probably call it Dacian...

ofcourse and the interaction between neighbours goes without saying.
No offence intended at all.
It is most interesting for me to see these weapons in their earliest phase!
... and from plural regions.

A few more pics on the subject from my book collection:

"Erinnerung an Sarajevo " J. Studnicka & Co., First Edition. Unbound. N.d. (before 1918). Large oblong octavo (19 x 26 cm). Complete suite of 12 color plates of scenes and costumes. Original cloth portfolio.
FYI: J. Studnicka & Co. in Sarajevo is already mentioned in 1898. And the portfolio can be dated before 1918 owing to the publisher's address affixed to the inside and on top of the front cover which reads "Buchhandlung J. Studnicka & Co. Sarajevo - Bosnien" -- no doubt this portfolio was intended for the tourist trade and provides a romantic view of this beautiful city .
Remember "tourist trade" also in relation with the white horn bichaqs for officers of the Bosniaken Regiments after 1882...
Enclosed 2 relevant pics with a detail pic of the weapons

[gp]

a little more on the history as I learned from reading plural historical publications on Bosnia with regards to Jatagans ( i.e. Yataghans), Bicaks ( Bichaqs) or Cakija ( knives and short for bicak), kama, noz as they were called in Bosnia, Serbia, Montenegro, Southern Dalmatia ( Dubrovnik/Ragusa and the Bay of Kotor /Boka Kotorska) and Makedonia /Macedonia.
It could well be Bulgaria as well but unfortunately my knowledge does not go that far

Nevertheless, back to Bosnia:
Due to the commemoration of one century insurrection in Bosnia & Hercegowina, the historic museum of Zagreb catagorized for the first time all yataghans in their posession in 1975.
1976 in Graz Austria a 2nd exhibition was held.
Of the total of 171 pieces, 119 had a signature / name to it and 79 could be / were dated.
The oldest was from 1774 signature Hajji Ibrahim, the "youngest" / earliest one from 06. 09. 1878.

After Habsburg took over Bosnia and Hercegowina from the Ottoman Empire conform the Berlin Congress ( art. 25 ), occupied ( after fierce resistance and fighting ) and ruled it in 1878:

the use and manufacturing of yataghan ( latest used during the insurrection of 1875/1876) was prohibited (!)

Henceforth strange it got "liberalized" a little and limited to K.u.K.officers and Habsburg dignataries only after 1882

althouigh the root cause is clear & easy : the wild Bosnians were known as fierce fighters, not only by the Ottomans...
Hence the build quite a strong reputation during WWI, especially at the Isonzo front , but that is another story.

Common criterium of this mostly in the European part of the Ottoman Empire till 1878 produced weapon was the at one side sharpened curved blade with curved scabbard. Another feature is a split pommel with more or lesser continuation into an earlike form.
Material used was ivory (very rare) , walrus, horn and wood.
Metal used; brass, copper and silver.
The scabbard made out of wood covered with brass or silver.

Locally the term hancar is also often used for yataghan which still leads / might lead to some confussion

A book on Ottoman military from 1732 where Marsiglia mentions a weapon used by the "Turcs" : «Hangiar», a kind of dagger which young Turcs and Janitsars did wear at their left side in a piece of cloth looped around their body. No mention of the name Yataghan in this book. Mid 18th century yataghans are mentioned in reports from the Asian part of the Ottoman Empire and North Africa.
As for the root of the "ears", the explanation is simple : used as a rest for the musket ( Dolleczek)
It seems there are 2 types of yataghans ( or also as they are called in the Balkan Hancar) conform Holstein (1931) :«Yataghan turc» and «Yataghan des Balkan».
For Croatia and Slavonia it seems a yataghan-like weapon AKA «Handyar» was mentioned in Habsburgian sources ; the armour of 1784 by Oberst J. A. von Brentao-Cimaroli locally recruted 12 companies Freecorps with hancar “ 12 Kompanien starken slawonisch-kroatischen Krenz-Freikorps (zuzüglich 500 Husaren) : «Feuergewehr sammt Bajonnet, ungarischen Säbeln, Pistolen und Handyar».
A local newspaper mentions for a border soldier ( grenzer / granicar) pistols and «Handschar» with ears ( Ohrenknauf ) with curved blade

In the Habsburgian army a Serbian freecorps operated since 1813 armed with handcar ( “ uniformen mit Handschar bewaffnet” ) with "ears"

Another unit was the Dalmation State Guard in 1869 with a "handschar" in black horn.

Eduard Wagner (1966): «Die Bezeichnung Handschar benutzten die Südslawen, gleichermassen auch die Mohammedaner der Balkanhalbinsel und Asiens. Die Bezeichnung Jatagan (Yatagan) war bei den nordafrikanischen Mohammedanern in Marokko, Algerien, Tunesien und Ägypten gebräuchlich».

"The name Handschar was used by the South Slavs, as well as the Mohammedans of the Balkan Peninsula and Asia. The name Jatagan (Yatagan) was used by the North African Mohammedans in Morocco, Algeria, Tunisia and Egypt ».


Enclosed 2 pics from a black one and one of an old warrior.