May i query again on this lance?

tom hyle · 12th May 2006, 09:23 PM

Could we get any sort of answer on the question of crossbars? I see no sign at all? Their absence would not rule out an European hunting spear; only some types for large dangerous game had them, and many such were also habitually used for killing men. The shape of the blade, the heavy construction of the socket, the apparent welding of the socket to the blade (?), and the multiple holes for nails or rivets are all pretty typical. Atypical and most interesting is that the blade seems to be made up of two plates welded to each other along an overlap at the center of the blade. This is generally considered a Bantu (Central African) technique/design, and is often echoed in the offset cross section of Bantu blades, formed by this method or more homogenous. It has one common cognate that I know in Europe; in the DE kinzhals with the offset fullers.
Small nails are fairly common, BTW, on old tools, and where the wood is sound, they are often quite effective, even difficult to withdraw when trying.
Attached dangly crossbars in the 1600s could be ivory etc. were flat, and attached by a flat ribbon, thru a flat tunnel, shich crosses thr\uu not the center of the spear, but off to the side.
Spears of such sort tend to have large parrallel sided blades not much like this.

fernando · 13th May 2006, 01:34 PM

Thank you for the link, Rather. I don't seem to be able to open the pictures, bu i got an idea from the front page.
The aproach i made on the 7th century saxon spear was only to quote an image of the blade construction and visual look. I tend to beleive mine is a 16th century piece, from the first opinion i had, and not 17th, as i wrongly wrote in the first post in this thread
I would say the two ( almost ) opposite holes are too close from the blade and so within the penetration area, therefore not plausible to have here any kind of device, be it crossbars or cloth and hair "blood stoppers". The late were definitely stuck into the socket base, right?

Thank you Tom
As you well say, the two little holes could be an add up to the socket fixing.
I actually took off the nails, to refix the shaft. They are not hard nails, but made of plain wire, looped at the top, maybe to simulate a nail head ? But i ignore if they are the originals.
Maybe the blade configuration is some different than you sugest, if i get your point ... my english is limited.
The set is composed of one base plane plate, with two extra half width parts turned (?) and welded to the base blade, one inverted to the other. This could make it look like like an offset situation, but i think this is more the result of the welding edges texture, secondary to the blade strenghtning intention, by means of doubling up the mass.
If you foccus differently to the pictures above, notice that the extra half parts include an extension down to the socket neck, to complete the reinforcement.This is what makes one think the socket is separate from the blade, but in fact is integral with the base plate.I hope you understood my selfmade lexicon.
All your further remarks confirm what i lately read on this area, namely a comprehensive portuguese book convering these weapons in medieval ages. However most pictured lances i see, are perfectly tooled, with a regular "ordnance" aspect. I still have dificulty in relating these pieces with my example, of grotesque lines, and made possibly with an anterior resource tecnique, therefore tricky to guess on its age. Also the "triangular" shaped blade is not much seen, as you well note.
Do you think this could be a 16th specimen ?
Thanks

12th May 2006, 09:23 PM	#1
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	Could we get any sort of answer on the question of crossbars? I see no sign at all? Their absence would not rule out an European hunting spear; only some types for large dangerous game had them, and many such were also habitually used for killing men. The shape of the blade, the heavy construction of the socket, the apparent welding of the socket to the blade (?), and the multiple holes for nails or rivets are all pretty typical. Atypical and most interesting is that the blade seems to be made up of two plates welded to each other along an overlap at the center of the blade. This is generally considered a Bantu (Central African) technique/design, and is often echoed in the offset cross section of Bantu blades, formed by this method or more homogenous. It has one common cognate that I know in Europe; in the DE kinzhals with the offset fullers. Small nails are fairly common, BTW, on old tools, and where the wood is sound, they are often quite effective, even difficult to withdraw when trying. Attached dangly crossbars in the 1600s could be ivory etc. were flat, and attached by a flat ribbon, thru a flat tunnel, shich crosses thr\uu not the center of the spear, but off to the side. Spears of such sort tend to have large parrallel sided blades not much like this.

13th May 2006, 01:34 PM	#2
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Thank you for the link, Rather. I don't seem to be able to open the pictures, bu i got an idea from the front page. The aproach i made on the 7th century saxon spear was only to quote an image of the blade construction and visual look. I tend to beleive mine is a 16th century piece, from the first opinion i had, and not 17th, as i wrongly wrote in the first post in this thread I would say the two ( almost ) opposite holes are too close from the blade and so within the penetration area, therefore not plausible to have here any kind of device, be it crossbars or cloth and hair "blood stoppers". The late were definitely stuck into the socket base, right? Thank you Tom As you well say, the two little holes could be an add up to the socket fixing. I actually took off the nails, to refix the shaft. They are not hard nails, but made of plain wire, looped at the top, maybe to simulate a nail head ? But i ignore if they are the originals. Maybe the blade configuration is some different than you sugest, if i get your point ... my english is limited. The set is composed of one base plane plate, with two extra half width parts turned (?) and welded to the base blade, one inverted to the other. This could make it look like like an offset situation, but i think this is more the result of the welding edges texture, secondary to the blade strenghtning intention, by means of doubling up the mass. If you foccus differently to the pictures above, notice that the extra half parts include an extension down to the socket neck, to complete the reinforcement.This is what makes one think the socket is separate from the blade, but in fact is integral with the base plate.I hope you understood my selfmade lexicon. All your further remarks confirm what i lately read on this area, namely a comprehensive portuguese book convering these weapons in medieval ages. However most pictured lances i see, are perfectly tooled, with a regular "ordnance" aspect. I still have dificulty in relating these pieces with my example, of grotesque lines, and made possibly with an anterior resource tecnique, therefore tricky to guess on its age. Also the "triangular" shaped blade is not much seen, as you well note. Do you think this could be a 16th specimen ? Thanks