What is this sword? Possibly British 1800s ...

Jim McDougall · 7th May 2020, 06:42 PM

I agree with the consensus here, pretty likely British, and that brass hilt conforms to various British patterns of mid 19th c. typically infantry, and other units officers swords . It is heartening to see photography that makes my own look almost discernible

.......but great post!
It's good to have a Civil War buff around, eh? (my daughter is in Upper State Michigan yooper land).
Thank you for the offers on input on that, thats what its all about here, sharing expertise!

ConfederateCanuck · 7th May 2020, 06:52 PM

Re the 1842 Austrian musket, it looks like this:

corrado26 · 8th May 2020, 07:44 AM

In its better days this was a M 1842 Austrian Infantry gun. Then in the 1870s, when many European governments sold their surplus muzzleloader arms to mostly Belgium dealers and gunmakers in order to gain money for a new series of urgently needed breechloader weapons, its Augustin system was replaced by a normal percussion system with a French cock. These converted guns then have been sold to the colonies and third-world-countries around the globe - what was a really big deal at that time.

ConfederateCanuck · 8th May 2020, 02:06 PM

The 1842 muskets that were sold to the North and South during the American Civil War were converted to percussion before entering service. In 1861 whe the war started, both sides purchased whatever weapons were available on the market, even substandard junk, which was to be refurbished before entering service.

However, as much as I like talking about muskets, this thread is digressing away from swords.

Kmaddock · 8th May 2020, 02:16 PM

Hi Canuck
welcome to the forum
I would go with it being a Royal House Guards type sword as being a possible match
is the blade straight and does it have a bulbus bit at the top (google pipeback sword and you will see what i am referring to)
regards

Ken

Hotspur · 8th May 2020, 06:22 PM

Welcome aboard

This appears to be a late 19th century Massachusetts Ancient&Honorable Artillery sword. Some were marked to Allien&Co. of New York. Others by Ames. No doubt, there were likely other groups buying these. These appear in the Ames catalog reprint.

There are multiple threads elsewhere.

A book regarding the society

https://books.google.com/books?id=q5hoNuEJPMoC

This is the Americanized offshoot going back to colonial years and borne out of the English artillery.

Cheers
GC

images with blue background courtesy of Shiloh Relics and a past sale.

ConfederateCanuck · 8th May 2020, 07:27 PM

Wow!! Incredible! I actually was starting to think it would be unlikely we'd ever find out what it was. As I searched online, it became obvious to me how many similar looking swords exists, so many variations on a theme.

I had hoped the guard was distinctive enough, even with the poor quality photos.

Thank you. I will let my friend know. And now, with the sword name/manufacturer in hand, I'll do a bit more research online and see what else I can find out about it (e.g. the 181 stamp...is that an inspector's marking?) I'll save any further questions until I have done my "homework" on this.

Unbelievable.....which begs the question, how is it that you know about these swords?

fernando · 8th May 2020, 07:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ConfederateCanuck

....which begs the question, how is it that you know about these swords? ...

Glen knows a lot ... about a lot of swords ...

Hotspur · 8th May 2020, 07:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ConfederateCanuck

Wow!! Incredible! I actually was starting to think it would be unlikely we'd ever find out what it was. As I searched online, it became obvious to me how many similar looking swords exists, so many variations on a theme.

I had hoped the guard was distinctive enough, even with the poor quality photos.

Thank you. I will let my friend know. And now, with the sword name/manufacturer in hand, I'll do a bit more research online and see what else I can find out about it (e.g. the 181 stamp...is that an inspector's marking?) I'll save any further questions until I have done my "homework" on this.

Unbelievable.....which begs the question, how is it that you know about these swords?

The 181 most likely a rack number. As to how I spotted it, that goes back to about 2006 and a somewhat different and much older sword. Once IDed, it has stuck in my mind ever since.

The US swords were indeed a nod to British fashion but even this pattern was superseded a few decades later after WWI. That might explain how these do turn up on the market and no longer "on the rack" (see b&w photo from the book).

I have been more or less retired since 2004 and have spent much of my time looking at and collecting swords.

Cheers
GC

Jim McDougall · 8th May 2020, 08:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ConfederateCanuck

Wow!! Incredible! I actually was starting to think it would be unlikely we'd ever find out what it was. As I searched online, it became obvious to me how many similar looking swords exists, so many variations on a theme.

I had hoped the guard was distinctive enough, even with the poor quality photos.

Thank you. I will let my friend know. And now, with the sword name/manufacturer in hand, I'll do a bit more research online and see what else I can find out about it (e.g. the 181 stamp...is that an inspector's marking?) I'll save any further questions until I have done my "homework" on this.

Unbelievable.....which begs the question, how is it that you know about these swords?

I cannot resist noting, to that question, Glen knows more about American swords, and by virtue of that most British as well, than most people I have known. He has always been the 'go to' guy here on these, and it does not surprise me he 'nailed' this mystery !

7th May 2020, 06:52 PM	#2
ConfederateCanuck Member Join Date: May 2020 Posts: 11	Re the 1842 Austrian musket, it looks like this: Attached Images

8th May 2020, 06:22 PM	#6
Hotspur Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Nipmuc USA Posts: 508	Welcome aboard This appears to be a late 19th century Massachusetts Ancient&Honorable Artillery sword. Some were marked to Allien&Co. of New York. Others by Ames. No doubt, there were likely other groups buying these. These appear in the Ames catalog reprint. There are multiple threads elsewhere. A book regarding the society https://books.google.com/books?id=q5hoNuEJPMoC This is the Americanized offshoot going back to colonial years and borne out of the English artillery. Cheers GC images with blue background courtesy of Shiloh Relics and a past sale. Attached Images

7th May 2020, 06:42 PM	#1
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,190	I agree with the consensus here, pretty likely British, and that brass hilt conforms to various British patterns of mid 19th c. typically infantry, and other units officers swords . It is heartening to see photography that makes my own look almost discernible .......but great post! It's good to have a Civil War buff around, eh? (my daughter is in Upper State Michigan yooper land). Thank you for the offers on input on that, thats what its all about here, sharing expertise!

8th May 2020, 07:44 AM	#3
corrado26 Member Join Date: Dec 2014 Location: Black Forest, Germany Posts: 1,226	In its better days this was a M 1842 Austrian Infantry gun. Then in the 1870s, when many European governments sold their surplus muzzleloader arms to mostly Belgium dealers and gunmakers in order to gain money for a new series of urgently needed breechloader weapons, its Augustin system was replaced by a normal percussion system with a French cock. These converted guns then have been sold to the colonies and third-world-countries around the globe - what was a really big deal at that time.

8th May 2020, 02:06 PM	#4
ConfederateCanuck Member Join Date: May 2020 Posts: 11	The 1842 muskets that were sold to the North and South during the American Civil War were converted to percussion before entering service. In 1861 whe the war started, both sides purchased whatever weapons were available on the market, even substandard junk, which was to be refurbished before entering service. However, as much as I like talking about muskets, this thread is digressing away from swords.

8th May 2020, 02:16 PM	#5
Kmaddock Member Join Date: May 2014 Location: Ireland Posts: 543	Hi Canuck welcome to the forum I would go with it being a Royal House Guards type sword as being a possible match is the blade straight and does it have a bulbus bit at the top (google pipeback sword and you will see what i am referring to) regards Ken

8th May 2020, 07:27 PM	#7
ConfederateCanuck Member Join Date: May 2020 Posts: 11	Wow!! Incredible! I actually was starting to think it would be unlikely we'd ever find out what it was. As I searched online, it became obvious to me how many similar looking swords exists, so many variations on a theme. I had hoped the guard was distinctive enough, even with the poor quality photos. Thank you. I will let my friend know. And now, with the sword name/manufacturer in hand, I'll do a bit more research online and see what else I can find out about it (e.g. the 181 stamp...is that an inspector's marking?) I'll save any further questions until I have done my "homework" on this. Unbelievable.....which begs the question, how is it that you know about these swords?