Algerian Long Gun

[Norman McCormick]

Butt end comparison if you'll pardon the phraseology.
Regards,
Norman.

[Norman McCormick]

An explanation of the tack holes from our friend Michael.

Butt plates did not normally appear before the 1580's on European military muskets, and they were made of very thin hammered iron attached not by nails but by tacks, with small, irregularly shaped but mostly rectangular heads.

Attached are details of a very fine German (Suhl) matchlock musket, ca. 1590-1600, overall length 1.67 m, weight 8.4 kgs, preserved in as-new condition; author's collection.

Only during the first half of the 18th c., butt plates got thicker and more figured, made of either iron or brass - depending on the material employed for the rest of the mounts.


Best,
Michael
Attached Images

Matchlock is offline

[rickystl]

Hi Stu

Thanks for you comments. I still believe this gun has an Algerian origin. Will elaborate further below.

Thanks Oliver. Yes, you can see a bit of Taouzilt influence in the butt stock. But the smaller size of the slight fishtail leads me back to Algerian again.

Hi Coradoand Philip: What I meant by "French" was the mechanics of the lock versus the style. I should have clarified that. My Bad. Indeed the lock style is a rough, locally made copy of the British 3rd Model Brown Bess lock, which pattern was extensively copied on Afghan guns, and on occasion in other regions. To me, the engraving on the lock looks like a generic Balkan style. See detached lock below.....

Rick

[rickystl]

Hi Norman

I remember this gun of yours very well, with it's rare Scottish snaphaunce lock and trigger. Notice how similar the butt stock shape is to my gun, with it's thumb groove set further to the rear in the wrist area.
And I very much agree with you ref butt plates. It seems that most of the Ottoman/Eastern stock styles originated from European forms from the 17th Century or earlier. Amazing how long that persisted.
I've been doing well. Been working from home since March 18. And it appears that will continue at least through May. Thank goodness the shooting range is open. LOL Hope you are doing well also.

Hi Kubur !! That photo looks like he is aiming a percussion shotgun.

Rick

[rickystl]

Here are some additional picks of the trigger guard and the now well worn carving on the wrist area. As well, the detached lock.
The lock is a somewhat rough assembly. But should clean up well. It's in working order but in need of some serious cleaning and tuning. Will probably have to replace the mainspring screw.
will add more comments below.....

Rick

[rickystl]

OK. Some further thoughts on this gun.......

TRIGGER GUARD: This appears to be an obvious later addition. With the very slight traces of later red rust and the use of 20th Century flat wood screws to attach it to the stock. Also, the inletting to the wood was crudely done. Also the head of the barrel tang screw entering the bottom of the stock (normal) is too close to the inside of the trigger guard to be removed without removing the guard itself. Further evidence that the guard itself was an after-thought.
I'm confident this gun was originally made without a trigger guard, which would be the norm for Algerian long guns (as well as others). But I have seen this before where some collector/hobbyist/etc., not familiar with these guns, thinks the trigger guard is missing, and adds one from another old gun.
STOCK: Notice the hole in the middle of the wrist area for a sling/ring type attachment. (Also on the stock that Norman posted above). This hole, at this location on the rear of the stock shows up on every Algerian long gun I have seen. A small, but possibly significant styling cue.
While the forend of the stock "looks" like it was cut back from the muzzle end, there is no evidence of this. This so called 3/4 length stock shows up on every Algerian long gun I have seen. (See photo below). And the exposed portion of the barrel towards the muzzle has the exact same patina around the entire circumference of the barrel. There is no evidence there was ever a portion of wood on the bottom of the barrel in this area.
Although less pronounced, the small fishtail at the end of the butt stock is there. The only real difference with this gun compared to others is the more downward curve of the butt stock versus straight as on most Algerian guns.
BARREL: This octagon barrel with it's fast taper all the way to the muzzle is exactly the same as on most every other Algerian long gun I have seen (two I remember had octagon-to-round barrels).

I guess the point I'm trying to make is that this gun has more features that point to an Algerian origin, than not. Of course, additional comments most welcomed. And thanks for your viewing. The gun certainly has that "tribal" look to me. LOL

Rick

[rickystl]

Here is another Algerian long gun from my collection. Although with the more commonly seen miquelet lock. But notice the so called 3/4 length forend of the stock. If you view these guns on any of Elgood's or Tirri's reference books, or on Internet searches you will see the stock style.

Rick

[Kubur]

Originally Posted by Norman McCormick

Butt end comparison if you'll pardon the phraseology.
Regards,
Norman.

Nice butts!
I just want to add that most of the Moroccan long guns are late copies of English and Dutch snaphaunce muskets with large downward butts. But I think this one is from another part of the world..

[kahnjar1]

Originally Posted by Kubur

Nice butts!
I just want to add that most of the Moroccan long guns are late copies of English and Dutch snaphaunce muskets with large downward butts. But I think this one is from another part of the world..

Hi Kubur,
The gun shown in your photo at #13 above, looks to be a pinfire, as the hammer noses overlap the barrels at the breech.(They are not cocked either so it is obviously a posed pic). Certainly NOT a percussion gun. Likely to be of French manufacture. Though it is hard to tell from your photo, the action looks to be what is called Lefauchaux. The gun opens by a FORWARD facing lever under the action. I doubt that the user would have found it easy to get suitable cartridges!
Stu

[qusko]

Hi Rick,

Additional examples I have found attached.

I tend to say it's Algerian musket, but in some places it was also referred as Moroccan.

Please check the butt style in the complete examples. It has a little bit wider butt plate. Maybe it's bone, but also, in some examples, it might be wood.

[Kubur]

Originally Posted by qusko

Hi Rick,
Please check the butt style in the complete examples. It has a little bit wider butt plate. Maybe it's bone, but also, in some examples, it might be wood.

Two guns in the middle are from Tunisia.
But Rick's gun is not from Tunisia. IMHO

[rickystl]

Hi Kubur

I remember your Algerian gun very well. A very good example. And glad I could help with the "part" LOL

Hi Gusko

Thank you so much for those photos. Those are the ones I was looking for. The Algerian looking guns with flintlocks versus the more common miquelet locks.
Notice too the most of the flintlocks are flat faced. That, and the general style of lock looks similar on all. Although the one has a slightly round faced like like mine. Also, notice the wood stock similarities with all. In fact, the last photo butt stock shape is almost a clone of mine.

I can certainly see where some collectors might refer to these guns as either Moroccan or Algerian style guns. In fact, I'm not 100% sure myself. LOL
Of course with the cross of these two cultures it can be confusing at times.
Thanks again Gusko for the photos. And thank you all for your comments.

Rick

[kahnjar1]

Hi Rick,
Can you please show a clear impression of this mark.
Regards Stu