Tombak Opinions Wanted

nechesh · 11th May 2006, 02:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by doecon

Please dont play with arsenic yourself, just leave it to proffessionals. I'm sure there is some small businesses in your area that can do it for you. I clean a lot of blades, but the staining itself I leave to others. see link below for some of the better reasons

http://www.jtbaker.com/msds/englishhtml/a7512.htm

I am afraid Rick has a point Doecon. Not many mom & pop shops doing traditional keris staining in my neck of the woods either. Also, some collectors like to take a hands-on DIY approach to their collections. I've been working with this process for a couple of years now. Common sense is, of course, a necessity in the handling of a substance like arsenic and your link is a valuable resource and much appreciated.

I also agree with Rick that this tombak isn't in too bad a shape. I would just keep it oiled for now.

doecon · 12th May 2006, 05:02 PM

Just curious;

aren't there services for staining iron at all? Some contracters who do protectionwork for your fence or interior? Probably they are using similar substances. Maybe iron staining is used in some other proffessions as well? Who knows if they can stain your fence, they might be able to do your Keris as well

(I havn't tried since I have found a pop & mom place next door).

For the sake of keeping your item in a good condition I would recommend to have it stained. (Keris) Oil can however already have a nice effect, since it normally brings a bit of extra contrast. But he, its your spear, please do with it what you want.

Regarding its origin I hardly dare to comment since Alan has given an opinion already

From the pictures included my uneducated guess it is central java made around 18th century. In case the ferule is not seperately forged, place and time might differ. (madura)

The little holes might have been drilled in later times for decorational purposes, I dont think they are part of the original design.

Rick · 12th May 2006, 05:12 PM

There's a staining shop in Florida ?!
Please tell me where .

nechesh · 12th May 2006, 06:22 PM

Doecon, i somehow doubt that if one were to find a place that stains iron for, as you suggested, fences, that they would be using arsenic and lime juice to do it. And as you probably are aware, while there are other substances that will darken iron while leaving nickelous material bright, none of them will give the proper color to the iron as is expected in a keris. Whatever protective treatment that companies use on iron fences would not be the same kind of thing and i don't believe warangan is applied to a keris to protect the iron anyway. Even if i were to find a company that for some reason did treat other metal objects like fences with arsenic and lime, i don't think i would be too keen on having them stain any of my keris. This is a process which involves a bit of subtelty, practice and skill so i'm not sure such workers would have the necessary understanding to get the staining right. Anyway, there is a certain satisfaction to be had in doing the job yourself. Still, if i were to find someone locally (or even in the States) who did this work correctly i might be inclined to use their services.
I am glad to hear that you have found a local place to do this work. Like Rick, i would also be interested in knowing who they are since i was unaware that there were any professional keris stainers in the United States. Do they use traditional methods?
Your statement about Alan giving his opinion on this tombak confuses me since i do not see that he has posted here. Can you explain this remark?

doecon · 12th May 2006, 07:13 PM

Sorry for the misunderstanding, the guy next door isn't in the US. I'm located in the one and only country that has fully dressed playmates in their local playboy. Indonesia. (the other half of doecon is in florida

Since I fully symphatize with you lacking a stainingservice, I was trying to opt. some alternatives. Another hint, I did read some time ago about a guy in the US doing this service for others..Unfortunatly I have no record. The only thing I remembered was that he was doing restorations as well. Try google him, who knows.

Another Idea, bit farfechted though, try to organize a little yearly keris-cleaning party. I'm sure there is enough support for that. (If needed I'll put my cleaning guy in a plane

.

Shipping your item here is simply a bit risky and expensive, I would love to help out but you have to pay for your own return postage. (50US for a keris)

Regarding the tombak, IP mentioned that Alan had reason to believe some features might be indicating other origin then Java. Wasn't me, but I would not dare to argue

Alan, come on in ..the floor is yours...

Rick · 12th May 2006, 08:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by doecon

Sorry for the misunderstanding, the guy next door isn't in the US. I'm located in the one and only country that has fully dressed playmates in their local playboy. Indonesia. (the other half of doecon is in florida

Ahh , two branches to the doecon family ; I wondered why the discrepancy .

In the States any one caught using arsenic on any exterior structure would probably be drawn and quartered by either the EPA or OSHA . Even copper sheet for valleys or entire roofs has been reformulated .

nechesh · 12th May 2006, 10:25 PM

Well, that explains alot. I was assuming your location based on your ebay address in Florida.
Believe me, i would gladly trade naked playmates for a corner mranggi any old day.

Yes, as you point out, there are a number of reasons why a U.S. collector might not want to ship a keris overseas for staining. For me the least of it would be the cost, though that is a factor. The staining service itself is cheap, but after tacking on round-trip postages and handling it's a pretty pricey process. But personally i am more concerned about getting my keris back in one piece if at all. There are all kinds of circumstances undr which it could be damaged or lost. Then there is the worry if one has an undiocumented ivory hilt, for instance. It may not make it back through U.S. customs.
The yearly cleaning party idea sounds interesting, but i think it might actually have a greater environmental impact if many keris are being cleaned in one place at the same time. As i said, i personal enjoy staining my own keris. It's not for everyone, i'm sure, but working with keris on this level has only increased my appreciation and knowledge of these blades. For those who are considering it i highly recommend that you start out on some low quality blades that you aren't too worried about. I was fortunate to get my hands on some that i really could only make better, since they were in pretty bad shape. Practice makes perfect..... or at least makes better.

12th May 2006, 07:13 PM	#5
doecon Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 63	Sorry for the misunderstanding, the guy next door isn't in the US. I'm located in the one and only country that has fully dressed playmates in their local playboy. Indonesia. (the other half of doecon is in florida Since I fully symphatize with you lacking a stainingservice, I was trying to opt. some alternatives. Another hint, I did read some time ago about a guy in the US doing this service for others..Unfortunatly I have no record. The only thing I remembered was that he was doing restorations as well. Try google him, who knows. Another Idea, bit farfechted though, try to organize a little yearly keris-cleaning party. I'm sure there is enough support for that. (If needed I'll put my cleaning guy in a plane. Shipping your item here is simply a bit risky and expensive, I would love to help out but you have to pay for your own return postage. (50US for a keris) Regarding the tombak, IP mentioned that Alan had reason to believe some features might be indicating other origin then Java. Wasn't me, but I would not dare to argue Alan, come on in ..the floor is yours...

12th May 2006, 05:02 PM	#2
doecon Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 63	Just curious; aren't there services for staining iron at all? Some contracters who do protectionwork for your fence or interior? Probably they are using similar substances. Maybe iron staining is used in some other proffessions as well? Who knows if they can stain your fence, they might be able to do your Keris as well (I havn't tried since I have found a pop & mom place next door). For the sake of keeping your item in a good condition I would recommend to have it stained. (Keris) Oil can however already have a nice effect, since it normally brings a bit of extra contrast. But he, its your spear, please do with it what you want. Regarding its origin I hardly dare to comment since Alan has given an opinion already From the pictures included my uneducated guess it is central java made around 18th century. In case the ferule is not seperately forged, place and time might differ. (madura) The little holes might have been drilled in later times for decorational purposes, I dont think they are part of the original design.

12th May 2006, 05:12 PM	#3
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,339	There's a staining shop in Florida ?! Please tell me where .

12th May 2006, 06:22 PM	#4
nechesh Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 940	Doecon, i somehow doubt that if one were to find a place that stains iron for, as you suggested, fences, that they would be using arsenic and lime juice to do it. And as you probably are aware, while there are other substances that will darken iron while leaving nickelous material bright, none of them will give the proper color to the iron as is expected in a keris. Whatever protective treatment that companies use on iron fences would not be the same kind of thing and i don't believe warangan is applied to a keris to protect the iron anyway. Even if i were to find a company that for some reason did treat other metal objects like fences with arsenic and lime, i don't think i would be too keen on having them stain any of my keris. This is a process which involves a bit of subtelty, practice and skill so i'm not sure such workers would have the necessary understanding to get the staining right. Anyway, there is a certain satisfaction to be had in doing the job yourself. Still, if i were to find someone locally (or even in the States) who did this work correctly i might be inclined to use their services. I am glad to hear that you have found a local place to do this work. Like Rick, i would also be interested in knowing who they are since i was unaware that there were any professional keris stainers in the United States. Do they use traditional methods? Your statement about Alan giving his opinion on this tombak confuses me since i do not see that he has posted here. Can you explain this remark?

12th May 2006, 10:25 PM	#7
nechesh Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 940	Well, that explains alot. I was assuming your location based on your ebay address in Florida. Believe me, i would gladly trade naked playmates for a corner mranggi any old day. Yes, as you point out, there are a number of reasons why a U.S. collector might not want to ship a keris overseas for staining. For me the least of it would be the cost, though that is a factor. The staining service itself is cheap, but after tacking on round-trip postages and handling it's a pretty pricey process. But personally i am more concerned about getting my keris back in one piece if at all. There are all kinds of circumstances undr which it could be damaged or lost. Then there is the worry if one has an undiocumented ivory hilt, for instance. It may not make it back through U.S. customs. The yearly cleaning party idea sounds interesting, but i think it might actually have a greater environmental impact if many keris are being cleaned in one place at the same time. As i said, i personal enjoy staining my own keris. It's not for everyone, i'm sure, but working with keris on this level has only increased my appreciation and knowledge of these blades. For those who are considering it i highly recommend that you start out on some low quality blades that you aren't too worried about. I was fortunate to get my hands on some that i really could only make better, since they were in pretty bad shape. Practice makes perfect..... or at least makes better.