North African dagger for identification

ariel · 29th March 2020, 10:40 PM

Well, to each his own. I also ordered Steel and Magic, even though it is not my area of interest.
But these days and for quite some time I am mostly collecting good books. There are so many things I learn from them!

One thing I have learned from Eric's book is that nobody, but nobody, in Morocco calls a Koummya "koummya". It is a Khanjar.
And that shorted some neurons deep in the amphibious part of the brain....:-)

What always puzzled me is the peculiar, practically unique, way of sharpening the edges of Koummya. It is double edged, but the convex side is sharpened only on the distal ~ 1/3 , whereas the concave side has 1/2-3/4 of it sharpened.

There are not very frequent examples of Persian khanjars with a very similar construction.
Anybody has an opinion whether it is just parallel development or a borrowed idea, and whether the local Moroccan moniker reflects it?

Sajen · 29th March 2020, 11:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

Well, to each his own. I also ordered Steel and Magic, even though it is not my area of interest.
But these days and for quite some time I am mostly collecting good books. There are so many things I learn from them!

Yes, I value good books as well, I will think about!

Kubur · 30th March 2020, 12:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

One thing I have learned from Eric's book is that nobody, but nobody, in Morocco calls a Koummya "koummya". It is a Khanjar.
And that shorted some neurons deep in the amphibious part of the brain....:-)

We know that you love this game!
Yes they say Hanzeer (khanjar).
And the Moroccan sword is a saif not a nimcha...

kronckew · 30th March 2020, 12:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

...

What always puzzled me is the peculiar, practically unique, way of sharpening the edges of Koummya. It is double edged, but the convex side is sharpened only on the distal ~ 1/3 , whereas the concave side has 1/2-3/4 of it sharpened.
...

that's because the jambiyah/koumiyyah/khanjarthrougout the arabic world is used with the point down and the inner curve as the main cutting surface, Most are fully double edged, and westerners and those not used to the old ways assume it's used like a short sabre/talwar.

See also this western sword dealer/teacher's take on this, and read the comments below, especially what id now the first,
"SamNam11
4 years ago
I'm a descendent of a nomad tribe from the Arabian peninsula. To use correctly, after the small penetration with the tip forward the holder makes an outward cut like with a kukri. So it never intended to make a full stab in that way of holding. Btw holding it upward with the tip backward was funny to see because in my culture is a sign of lacking the experience with this dagger

".

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fy9myTnFfUc

ariel · 30th March 2020, 02:54 PM

Thanks!
I knew it, but did not dig it out of my amphibious brain. Shame....
Lesson for me: information needs to be stored AND actively retrieved:-)
I forgot this rule at my own peril.
Will tattoo it in red on my frontal lobe .

kronckew · 30th March 2020, 03:19 PM

I suspect the Moroccans are lazy and only sharpen as little as possible rather than the more normal fully sharpened both edges. It's certainly not because they get there fingers down there. I dislike Khoumiyya in general. Moroccan saifs are OK tho, I especially like the ones we call 'nimcha' even tho they aren't really. I have a 'cavalry nimcha' with a really long blade (Camel corps?) as an oxymoron; and a more piratey nimcha (short) one or two. One of those is guardless but has the std grip profile for one... Weird.

Kubur · 30th March 2020, 08:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kronckew

I suspect the Moroccans are lazy and only sharpen as little as possible rather than the more normal fully sharpened both edges. It's certainly not because they get there fingers down there. I dislike Khoumiyya in general.

Moroccans are not lazy, Africans are not lazy, Arabs are not lazy.
English are not lazy (despite they have Polish workers).

Be careful i was banned from this forum for less
just because I posted one item that i had on the swap forum...

Sajen · 30th March 2020, 09:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kubur

English are not lazy (despite they have Polish workers).

But I can confirm that also Polands not lazy!

The Germans like Poland workers.

ariel · 30th March 2020, 11:30 PM

On top of that, Poland has an insane number of gorgeous women. Polish men are not lazy: they understandably try to stay home as much as possible. Can’t blame them

)))

kronckew · 30th March 2020, 10:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kubur

Moroccans are not lazy, Africans are not lazy, Arabs are not lazy.
English are not lazy (despite they have Polish workers).

Be careful i was banned from this forum for less
just because I posted one item that i had on the swap forum...

i Was just Joking. Time is money to a maker, if they do not need to perform an operation they won't, unless they can justify the expense. And I worked with a large number of Arabs, lived in nSaudi for 10+ years, `some were lazy, some were not. just like the rest of us. Had an assistant in Dhahran that was half Saudi, Half Moroccan, UK Cambridge Grad, smarter than most, and an all around great person and friend. His Mom was the moroccan one, very western, divorced from her Saudi husband and ruled the family. really sharp woman.

p.s.- Half my family came from areas that are now Poland, were Prussia and Austria Galetia back then. We were the German speaking part. The Polish plumbers and construction workers in the UK usually make the indigenous ones look less than industrious, especially the Union ones.

gp · 18th April 2022, 08:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kronckew

I suspect the Moroccans are lazy and only sharpen as little as possible rather than the more normal fully sharpened both edges. It's certainly not because they get there fingers down there. I dislike Khoumiyya in general. Moroccan saifs are OK tho, I especially like the ones we call 'nimcha' even tho they aren't really. I have a 'cavalry nimcha' with a really long blade (Camel corps?) as an oxymoron; and a more piratey nimcha (short) one or two. One of those is guardless but has the std grip profile for one... Weird.

well to inflict maximum damage in battle, one doesn't sharpen a blade...those wounds don't heal as easy as a sharp cut one and tend to be more deadly.
That's a lesson I learned from my late father from his WWII experience...

But also many swords in the American Civel War were not sharpened; to avoid the horses getting hurt....
Hence one finds small pieces broken out at the blade...

Comming back to my friends in the Magreb, the Khoumiyya was a very effective weapon in the Riff Wars as the Spanish found out or the French before them through the hands of Emir Abdelkader and his troops.
Excellent side weapons to the riffles and the combination of the high temperature with a hole isn't exactly nice and allowing a combatant to return to active service soon...

A sharp knife/dagger comes in handy as a "nice & sleazy" assassin's or revange act compared to a battlefield one

fennec · 5th February 2023, 03:39 AM

Hi everyone, I'm new to the site, and only here because of that post

I'm an 35yr french blacksmith, with algerian descent, and I want to spread with you some of my knowledge, about crafts of my origins.

First of all, this is DEFINITELY an ALGERIAN knife (the first one), and especially from the region of Bou-Saada (what you call "bou-saadi", or "khodmi". Khodmi mean knife in arabic, and the word is used through all the country, so we call that kind "khodmi bou-saadi", that mean "knife of bousaada"). in that way, "bousaadi" dont defines a style, a shape, or a smithing method, but just, a region. As for the "flissa" (name given by french, to many swords made by the Iflissen in Algeria, but really different shapes, from the straight to the curved one, with or without guard). While a "katana" (I make nihontos

) has a a lot a specific things to be called a katana, a "bousaadi", is just a knife made by a guy, in bousaada, and he probably dont call it like that

... Well, let's try to see, what those knives are
(and sorry for my bad english).

Why algerian ?

- The EDGE : If you look closely to the cutting edge, you probably could guess how its done. It is by cold hamering the iron, or soft steel, that they get that kind of shape, like its done for a scythe blade made from iron. The reason, or the origin of that way of smithing, is because an iron with few carbon in that region, that allow that without craking, a method used from millenaries in that region for tools. With hard steel, that concave shape is made before quenching (contrary to other steel), or simply forgotten.

- Asymetric : both sides of a bousaadi arent similar. Because of what I've explained before, both sides are not the same. One, and usually, the same on every knife, is drawn with a line that will give the hamering zone for the cutting edge. The other side is putted on the anvil.

- Inlay : As for the things mentionned before, inlaying soft materials as copper, or a particular algerian alloy close to the brass, directly into the blade, is typically algerian. This was done on the flissas for centuries, and also for the bousaadi, even they are not all inlayed (but usually, flissas are).

Geometric design: That inlay (and the engraving) belong to the tradition of bousaada. That two, or three knot of "color" on the blade are usual on those "hight quality" blades. In another style, two or three little pit are made, and fill with "color", red, blue, or green. This is also visible on decorations knives from that city.

The handle : you can usually find two kind of handles on bousaadis. The first one is wooden or horn made, and have that particular wire of steel or copper to fix the blade. The second one, is made by fixing two pieces (usually horn) on the tang with two (or rarely 3 on a longer tang) rivet. this method is usually choosed for the bigger knives, or when the steel allow that (a lot of those knives were made with recycled steel, files, etc...). I have some models different, like one covered with steel plates, on the horn, but this is still a bousaadi. The one on this topic respond to the second cathegory

Hole on the handle: Another absolutely bousaadi things, is that hole on the handle, just after the fixation wire, or after the two rivets. There is a leather lace on the scabbard of those knives. And if, with the time, it is lost on the most of them, it was originally. What people think is a hand strap (fixed on a scabbard???

) is just a lace, to fix the blade IN the sheath, by passing it in the handle hole. For the details, you can find a hole made exacty as the japanese way for mekugi ana, I mean a conic shape. That gives the possibility to pass easily the lace by one side, and let it "block" by a hole little smaller on the other.
In that post, that hole was simply closed with a pin (that is smaller, than those holding the blade, if you look closely). There is two possible reason to that (because i've seen that before). First, the craftsman, or the algerian owner, just has a better scabbard, that hold the blade, or prabable, dont carry it. So he closed that hole, as we can do on a Tsuba, for the "kogai itsu ana". Or, probably an occidental collector that think the pin was lost.

Well, I've probably forgott things, but I think, and I hope, that I gave you more details about art from Algeria. A lot a things from that country are usually mistaken to be morrocan, or tunisian, because of practically no tourism in Algeria, but it's still the BIGGER country in Africa, and I hope I gave you a little taste of it

Pictures from some of mines :

- Two decorations from bousaada, both are curved, and one made by copper, however, those are bousaadi knives, with the typical wire, and the color (see "inlay") "knots" on the swords and scabbard.

- A very old a unusual shape of bousaadi, with a horn handle covered with copper, but you can still find that hole for holdind the knife in the scabbard, and the concave shape of the cutting edge.

- A bousaadi, fixed with the lace

- Two bousaadi, the upper one is made from a softer steel than the other, that is made from an old file (you can see the stripes, and the triangular shape or the tang). The first one has been made by the technique i've mentionned, while the second one has a more regular shape. You can also see how the cutting edges are differently used by the time, and I dont think that the owner was the only reason

(soft steel.. and very thin edge for the upper one).
You can also notice that way of forging, in the other side (inverted sorry, the soft steel is the down knife).

May the FORGE be with you

Sajen · 11th February 2023, 01:49 PM

Hello Fennec,

Welcome to the forum! And great to receive a comment from a connoisseur of Algerian knives.
I really like these daggers, if the small ones or even the bigger ones.
I have some further questions for you.
1. You mention the hole in the handle, in the meanwhile I have acquired a forth example which I believe fits also in this category which doesn't have this hole. Would you agree that this dagger is also Algerian? (third and next pictures)
2. Do you think that the two daggers in the second picture are also Algerian?

Thank you very much!

Regards,
Detlef

29th March 2020, 10:40 PM	#1
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Well, to each his own. I also ordered Steel and Magic, even though it is not my area of interest. But these days and for quite some time I am mostly collecting good books. There are so many things I learn from them! One thing I have learned from Eric's book is that nobody, but nobody, in Morocco calls a Koummya "koummya". It is a Khanjar. And that shorted some neurons deep in the amphibious part of the brain....:-) What always puzzled me is the peculiar, practically unique, way of sharpening the edges of Koummya. It is double edged, but the convex side is sharpened only on the distal ~ 1/3 , whereas the concave side has 1/2-3/4 of it sharpened. There are not very frequent examples of Persian khanjars with a very similar construction. Anybody has an opinion whether it is just parallel development or a borrowed idea, and whether the local Moroccan moniker reflects it? Attached Images

30th March 2020, 11:30 PM	#9
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	On top of that, Poland has an insane number of gorgeous women. Polish men are not lazy: they understandably try to stay home as much as possible. Can’t blame them)))

5th February 2023, 03:39 AM	#12
fennec Member Join Date: Feb 2023 Posts: 7	Confirmation of Algerian Bou-saadi Khodmi Hi everyone, I'm new to the site, and only here because of that post I'm an 35yr french blacksmith, with algerian descent, and I want to spread with you some of my knowledge, about crafts of my origins. First of all, this is DEFINITELY an ALGERIAN knife (the first one), and especially from the region of Bou-Saada (what you call "bou-saadi", or "khodmi". Khodmi mean knife in arabic, and the word is used through all the country, so we call that kind "khodmi bou-saadi", that mean "knife of bousaada"). in that way, "bousaadi" dont defines a style, a shape, or a smithing method, but just, a region. As for the "flissa" (name given by french, to many swords made by the Iflissen in Algeria, but really different shapes, from the straight to the curved one, with or without guard). While a "katana" (I make nihontos ) has a a lot a specific things to be called a katana, a "bousaadi", is just a knife made by a guy, in bousaada, and he probably dont call it like that ... Well, let's try to see, what those knives are (and sorry for my bad english). Why algerian ? - The EDGE : If you look closely to the cutting edge, you probably could guess how its done. It is by cold hamering the iron, or soft steel, that they get that kind of shape, like its done for a scythe blade made from iron. The reason, or the origin of that way of smithing, is because an iron with few carbon in that region, that allow that without craking, a method used from millenaries in that region for tools. With hard steel, that concave shape is made before quenching (contrary to other steel), or simply forgotten. - Asymetric : both sides of a bousaadi arent similar. Because of what I've explained before, both sides are not the same. One, and usually, the same on every knife, is drawn with a line that will give the hamering zone for the cutting edge. The other side is putted on the anvil. - Inlay : As for the things mentionned before, inlaying soft materials as copper, or a particular algerian alloy close to the brass, directly into the blade, is typically algerian. This was done on the flissas for centuries, and also for the bousaadi, even they are not all inlayed (but usually, flissas are). Geometric design: That inlay (and the engraving) belong to the tradition of bousaada. That two, or three knot of "color" on the blade are usual on those "hight quality" blades. In another style, two or three little pit are made, and fill with "color", red, blue, or green. This is also visible on decorations knives from that city. The handle : you can usually find two kind of handles on bousaadis. The first one is wooden or horn made, and have that particular wire of steel or copper to fix the blade. The second one, is made by fixing two pieces (usually horn) on the tang with two (or rarely 3 on a longer tang) rivet. this method is usually choosed for the bigger knives, or when the steel allow that (a lot of those knives were made with recycled steel, files, etc...). I have some models different, like one covered with steel plates, on the horn, but this is still a bousaadi. The one on this topic respond to the second cathegory Hole on the handle: Another absolutely bousaadi things, is that hole on the handle, just after the fixation wire, or after the two rivets. There is a leather lace on the scabbard of those knives. And if, with the time, it is lost on the most of them, it was originally. What people think is a hand strap (fixed on a scabbard??? ) is just a lace, to fix the blade IN the sheath, by passing it in the handle hole. For the details, you can find a hole made exacty as the japanese way for mekugi ana, I mean a conic shape. That gives the possibility to pass easily the lace by one side, and let it "block" by a hole little smaller on the other. In that post, that hole was simply closed with a pin (that is smaller, than those holding the blade, if you look closely). There is two possible reason to that (because i've seen that before). First, the craftsman, or the algerian owner, just has a better scabbard, that hold the blade, or prabable, dont carry it. So he closed that hole, as we can do on a Tsuba, for the "kogai itsu ana". Or, probably an occidental collector that think the pin was lost. Well, I've probably forgott things, but I think, and I hope, that I gave you more details about art from Algeria. A lot a things from that country are usually mistaken to be morrocan, or tunisian, because of practically no tourism in Algeria, but it's still the BIGGER country in Africa, and I hope I gave you a little taste of it Pictures from some of mines : - Two decorations from bousaada, both are curved, and one made by copper, however, those are bousaadi knives, with the typical wire, and the color (see "inlay") "knots" on the swords and scabbard. - A very old a unusual shape of bousaadi, with a horn handle covered with copper, but you can still find that hole for holdind the knife in the scabbard, and the concave shape of the cutting edge. - A bousaadi, fixed with the lace - Two bousaadi, the upper one is made from a softer steel than the other, that is made from an old file (you can see the stripes, and the triangular shape or the tang). The first one has been made by the technique i've mentionned, while the second one has a more regular shape. You can also see how the cutting edges are differently used by the time, and I dont think that the owner was the only reason (soft steel.. and very thin edge for the upper one). You can also notice that way of forging, in the other side (inverted sorry, the soft steel is the down knife). May the FORGE be with you Attached Images

11th February 2023, 01:49 PM	#13
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 9,207	Hello Fennec, Welcome to the forum! And great to receive a comment from a connoisseur of Algerian knives. I really like these daggers, if the small ones or even the bigger ones. I have some further questions for you. 1. You mention the hole in the handle, in the meanwhile I have acquired a forth example which I believe fits also in this category which doesn't have this hole. Would you agree that this dagger is also Algerian? (third and next pictures) 2. Do you think that the two daggers in the second picture are also Algerian? Thank you very much! Regards, Detlef Attached Images

30th March 2020, 02:54 PM	#5
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Thanks! I knew it, but did not dig it out of my amphibious brain. Shame.... Lesson for me: information needs to be stored AND actively retrieved:-) I forgot this rule at my own peril. Will tattoo it in red on my frontal lobe .

30th March 2020, 03:19 PM	#6
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,224	I suspect the Moroccans are lazy and only sharpen as little as possible rather than the more normal fully sharpened both edges. It's certainly not because they get there fingers down there. I dislike Khoumiyya in general. Moroccan saifs are OK tho, I especially like the ones we call 'nimcha' even tho they aren't really. I have a 'cavalry nimcha' with a really long blade (Camel corps?) as an oxymoron; and a more piratey nimcha (short) one or two. One of those is guardless but has the std grip profile for one... Weird.