ID for Ancient Kujang / Kudi? Hindu /Siam/Persian influence?

A. G. Maisey · 10th May 2006, 07:17 AM

When it is suspected that forgery and deception are rife in a particular area, it is very easy to assume that many things from that area are forged or falsified when in fact they are not. Particularly so when extreme is age is involved. In fact, there is very little actual forgery in the field of wesi aji. There is an enormous amount of misrepresentation, there is some falsification, but forgery per se is rare.
In the case of the object under discussion here, its market value is simply not sufficiently high for any forger to be even remotely interested in producing it.Additionally, the field of archaic Javanese iron implements is a very rareified field of study; there is to the best of my knowledge virtually nothing published that is of any assistance, it is not a very popular field for collection, even in Jawa. The only guide is experience, and because of the scarcity of these objects, that experience can take a very long time to accumulate.
It is perfectly understandable that somebody with no, or limited experience in this field could be misled into assuming that the object under discussion is not as it is represented.

David, I do not think that we can introduce talismanic connections for these implements. There are many everyday implements included in the Sukuh reliefs, and other Javanese reliefs at other sites. Just because something is depicted in a Candi relief does not make it special.

There are many reliefs at Candi Sukuh, the most notable is the Sudamala, but there are other reliefs as well, on columns and pillars.These objects are well distributed throughout the reliefs. I cannot recall precisely where and under what circumstances, but they have always struck me as objects that were essentially agricultural implements that could be put to use as a weapon, much the same as the arit has been employed in more recent times.My memory is that mostly they are held, but a few may be stuck into a belt or sash.
These objects probably appear in other old reliefs as well. Possibly a search of Prambanan and Panataran would provide examples, and they could well be found at other sites.
I have never regarded them as of particular interest , except for the fact that they are ancient. There are several different patterns, all clearly related. It is possible that they may originally have been known as "wedun(g)" , this being Old Javanese for a type of axe with a wide blade. This is pure hypothesis on my part.

I actually have many photographs of the Sukuh carvings, but looking at them will not reveal any secrets.

Some years ago a team from a major US university visited Candi Panataran and photographed everything. I also have photographs of most of the Panataran carvings, but the study of this type of thing is a very specialised field and the end result of any analysis is perhaps only of interest to academics specialising in this field.

10th May 2006, 07:17 AM	#15
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,015	When it is suspected that forgery and deception are rife in a particular area, it is very easy to assume that many things from that area are forged or falsified when in fact they are not. Particularly so when extreme is age is involved. In fact, there is very little actual forgery in the field of wesi aji. There is an enormous amount of misrepresentation, there is some falsification, but forgery per se is rare. In the case of the object under discussion here, its market value is simply not sufficiently high for any forger to be even remotely interested in producing it.Additionally, the field of archaic Javanese iron implements is a very rareified field of study; there is to the best of my knowledge virtually nothing published that is of any assistance, it is not a very popular field for collection, even in Jawa. The only guide is experience, and because of the scarcity of these objects, that experience can take a very long time to accumulate. It is perfectly understandable that somebody with no, or limited experience in this field could be misled into assuming that the object under discussion is not as it is represented. David, I do not think that we can introduce talismanic connections for these implements. There are many everyday implements included in the Sukuh reliefs, and other Javanese reliefs at other sites. Just because something is depicted in a Candi relief does not make it special. There are many reliefs at Candi Sukuh, the most notable is the Sudamala, but there are other reliefs as well, on columns and pillars.These objects are well distributed throughout the reliefs. I cannot recall precisely where and under what circumstances, but they have always struck me as objects that were essentially agricultural implements that could be put to use as a weapon, much the same as the arit has been employed in more recent times.My memory is that mostly they are held, but a few may be stuck into a belt or sash. These objects probably appear in other old reliefs as well. Possibly a search of Prambanan and Panataran would provide examples, and they could well be found at other sites. I have never regarded them as of particular interest , except for the fact that they are ancient. There are several different patterns, all clearly related. It is possible that they may originally have been known as "wedun(g)" , this being Old Javanese for a type of axe with a wide blade. This is pure hypothesis on my part. I actually have many photographs of the Sukuh carvings, but looking at them will not reveal any secrets. Some years ago a team from a major US university visited Candi Panataran and photographed everything. I also have photographs of most of the Panataran carvings, but the study of this type of thing is a very specialised field and the end result of any analysis is perhaps only of interest to academics specialising in this field.