I know my Pappenheims...

shayde78 · 23rd March 2020, 03:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ulfberth

The gripwire has also been replaced by cord and it's missing one Turkish knot, still an original pappenheimer rapier an a rare find !

So, upon taking a closer look, the grip appears to be wrapped, not in cord, but in a woven textile material that has been dipped in something like pitch(?). I'm attaching close-ups where you can clearly see the woven pattern. Is this at all typical of a period replacement?

shayde78 · 23rd March 2020, 03:29 AM

Thanks for all the good information!

I was finally able to get some photos of the markings on the reverse side of the ricasso. Still hard to make out, but I'm uploading several pictures in the hope that someone can piece together what it says.

This is proving an engaging activity while on a state-wide COVID-19 lockdown...thank you for providing some good conversation

fernando · 23rd March 2020, 12:35 PM

Can you make it KEVELAER ?
There is a German town called Kevelaer ...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kevelaer
Could the inscription be a religious dedication ?

Nonsense, of course

.

.

ulfberth · 23rd March 2020, 01:55 PM

It looks like CLEMENS KEULLER on the ricasso , spelling was phonetic in this period and most people could not write.
We also know that the letter U was mostly engraved or struck as V.
So I think there is a good chance it is on one side " clemen(s)" and on the other side "keuller" CLEMENS KEULLER . Not all sword / rapier blades have markings, so you have this as a plus. ( from European makers of edged weapons by Staffan Kinman )

fernando · 23rd March 2020, 02:36 PM

Bravo, Dirk; brilliant

.

shayde78 · 23rd March 2020, 10:15 PM

Well done! Thank you so much. this is exciting to have a piece by a known maker.

Thank you for providing resources to keep digging through. Like I said, this is proving to be fun

fernando · 24th March 2020, 11:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shayde78

... this is exciting to have a piece by a known maker.

...

Much more when you bought as a reproduction

shayde78 · 15th April 2020, 03:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shayde78

So, upon taking a closer look, the grip appears to be wrapped, not in cord, but in a woven textile material that has been dipped in something like pitch(?). I'm attaching close-ups where you can clearly see the woven pattern. Is this at all typical of a period replacement?

I hope everyone is staying safe during their COVID lockdown. The question I asked in post #16 seems to have been lost as we moved on to discuss the name on the ricasso. Any insights into this treatment of the grip? I seem to see similar grip covering on other examples from the period and would love to know what it is, and if it might have been part of this weapon's functional life.

ulfberth · 15th April 2020, 06:31 PM

thanks for the reminder and the clear close up picture.
It is hard to say if this textile is a replacement during working life.
Some gripwire's had textile underneath but these are of very fine woven textile nothing like this.

shayde78 · 16th May 2020, 11:19 PM

Thank you, ulfberth, Fernando, Mark (you were the first to ID it as legit!), and everyone else who contributed to helping me understand what is now the favorite item in my collection. An authentic, original rapier from this period has been a bucket-list acquisition for me (and one I presumed to be long out of my price range). I appreciate all of you who helped me learn more.
Hope you are all staying well!
-Rob

shayde78 · 1st April 2023, 06:14 PM

Just adding this link to a thread which discusses a similar textile covering on the grip of a khanda.

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...574#post280574

Not sure if this suggests the Pappenheim may have spent some time in South Asia, or if wrapping the grip in a textile impregnated with pitch was a fairly widespread (albeit not common) practice. I know the grip on the Pappenheim was originally wrapped in wire, and this example retains a single Turks Head. Yet I remain intrigued by this surviving material.

23rd March 2020, 03:29 AM	#2
shayde78 Member Join Date: Mar 2017 Posts: 445	Thanks for all the good information! I was finally able to get some photos of the markings on the reverse side of the ricasso. Still hard to make out, but I'm uploading several pictures in the hope that someone can piece together what it says. This is proving an engaging activity while on a state-wide COVID-19 lockdown...thank you for providing some good conversation Attached Images

23rd March 2020, 12:35 PM	#3
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Can you make it KEVELAER ? There is a German town called Kevelaer ... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kevelaer Could the inscription be a religious dedication ? Nonsense, of course . . Last edited by fernando; 23rd March 2020 at 01:07 PM.

23rd March 2020, 01:55 PM	#4
ulfberth Member Join Date: Jul 2014 Posts: 428	It looks like CLEMENS KEULLER on the ricasso , spelling was phonetic in this period and most people could not write. We also know that the letter U was mostly engraved or struck as V. So I think there is a good chance it is on one side " clemen(s)" and on the other side "keuller" CLEMENS KEULLER . Not all sword / rapier blades have markings, so you have this as a plus. ( from European makers of edged weapons by Staffan Kinman ) Attached Images

23rd March 2020, 02:36 PM	#5
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Bravo, Dirk; brilliant .

23rd March 2020, 10:15 PM	#6
shayde78 Member Join Date: Mar 2017 Posts: 445	Well done! Thank you so much. this is exciting to have a piece by a known maker. Thank you for providing resources to keep digging through. Like I said, this is proving to be fun

15th April 2020, 06:31 PM	#9
ulfberth Member Join Date: Jul 2014 Posts: 428	thanks for the reminder and the clear close up picture. It is hard to say if this textile is a replacement during working life. Some gripwire's had textile underneath but these are of very fine woven textile nothing like this.

16th May 2020, 11:19 PM	#10
shayde78 Member Join Date: Mar 2017 Posts: 445	Thank you, ulfberth, Fernando, Mark (you were the first to ID it as legit!), and everyone else who contributed to helping me understand what is now the favorite item in my collection. An authentic, original rapier from this period has been a bucket-list acquisition for me (and one I presumed to be long out of my price range). I appreciate all of you who helped me learn more. Hope you are all staying well! -Rob

1st April 2023, 06:14 PM	#11
shayde78 Member Join Date: Mar 2017 Posts: 445	Just adding this link to a thread which discusses a similar textile covering on the grip of a khanda. http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...574#post280574 Not sure if this suggests the Pappenheim may have spent some time in South Asia, or if wrapping the grip in a textile impregnated with pitch was a fairly widespread (albeit not common) practice. I know the grip on the Pappenheim was originally wrapped in wire, and this example retains a single Turks Head. Yet I remain intrigued by this surviving material.