Long Pedang from Bali (or Lombok?)

A. G. Maisey · 22nd March 2020, 12:54 AM

Just an after thought.

In respect of the word "tiuk" = "knife".

This word has the legitimate alternative spellings, and thus pronunciations of "tihuk" and "tiyuk".

In all cases the "k" is a glottal stop.

A. G. Maisey · 22nd March 2020, 01:22 AM

Actually, if we want to use the name that was correct at the time this weapon was in fact being used as a weapon, we probably should name it as:-

"Keris Tuwek" , this would have been correct usage up until at least the early 1950's.

I doubt that you will find this name in any weapons reference, but it was correct usage before the present surge in "knowledge", much of which has been drawn from sources other than Bali.

Ian · 22nd March 2020, 03:01 AM

Hi Athanase,

These swords have been discussed on this Forum over the last decade or more. One of the early discussions was here, and there are several more examples shown in that thread. Most of the threads relating to this sword have used the term cundrik, and they have often been attributed to Lombok.

Ian.

David · 22nd March 2020, 03:25 AM

I actually think this blade bears only a slight resemblance to other blades presented here that have been called "cundrik" or "cuntrik". I also don't believe this blade is in the same category as those known by some collectors as Balinese wedung or tiuk pengentas. It does bear the most resemblance to the blade "Ki Pedang Nagaraja" that Alan has shown, though that blade is luk and this one straight. I would be most likely to refer to this as a keris pedang or perhaps just pedang.

A. G. Maisey · 22nd March 2020, 03:56 AM

I reckon that pedang is probably as good as anything else, but if, just if we wish pay a nod of respect to what Balinese people themselves might refer to this sword as I think perhaps "Keris Pedang" or the older, more traditional "Keris Tewek" might be the way to go.

The definition of "tewek" is "a keris that is shaped like a sword".

Now, this requires us to think in a Balinese way about what a keris actually is, and that Balinese way aligns more closely with Pre-Islamic Jawa than with Islamic Jawa.

Alternatively, we can turn to Lombok and the most respected Lalu Djelengga (alm.) and then we have a choice of cundrik or sundrik or berang.

But if we choose to run with Lalu Djelengga we need to bear in mind that Lalu Djelengga was Muslim, not Balinese, so we are then using probably Sasak terminology to classify something that at least in the form that started this discussion, is decidedly Balinese.

Now we really are touching on the sillyness of that game that is so beloved by all collectors in all fields. We strive to give something its correct name, but do we bother to define the time or place that will form the framework for that definition? Do we even understand the languages involved?

My personal position on this is that geographic point of origin and place in time should be identified first, after that we should try to classify in accordance with the name that is most likely to have been used by the people of that geographic location at the time when the object in question was used.

If we do not do this, we might just as well name any object in accordance with our own naming conventions, which would make the item under discussion here a sword, or perhaps short sword, decorated with a dragon or serpent.

kai · 23rd March 2020, 11:59 PM

Hello Alan,

Quote:

I reckon that pedang is probably as good as anything else, but if, just if we wish pay a nod of respect to what Balinese people themselves might refer to this sword as I think perhaps "Keris Pedang" or the older, more traditional "Keris Tewek" might be the way to go.

The definition of "tewek" is "a keris that is shaped like a sword".

Now, this requires us to think in a Balinese way about what a keris actually is, and that Balinese way aligns more closely with Pre-Islamic Jawa than with Islamic Jawa.

Thanks for chiming in here!

Could you please expand why such a piece would be regarded by Balinese as "a keris that is shaped like a sword" rather than "a sword that is shaped like a sword"?

Is keris used here in a wider sense encompassing what would be regarded as tosan aji in Jawa?

Thanks in advance!

Regards,
Kai

A. G. Maisey · 24th March 2020, 01:34 AM

Kai, to give a complete and accurate response to your question I would probably need to be Theodore Pigeaud, and frankly, I am not even worthy to be this gentleman's shadow, assuming of course that he were still to be with us, which he is not, he was promoted about 30 years ago.

But I'll do my best to try, if only from the point of view as somebody who can only be regarded as an amateur in the fields involved.

We need to go back into Old Javanese literature, works such as the Nagakertagama and the Nawanatya. If we read these we find that there are mentions of a number of weapon types and we do have some difficulty in working out exactly what these weapon types would be known as now, in the 21st century.

For example, we have this passage in the Nagakertagama:-

"Exterminated were the animals, thrusted, lanced, cut, crissed, dying without a gasp”

the word "crissed" is of course a variant spelling of "krissed"/"kerissed", and in the original in Romanised Old Javanese the word is "kinris" (& angris, silah kris) and means to stab with a keris.

In the Nawanatya a word used for the keris is "twek", another word used for keris is "curigo".

If we look at the way in which each of these different words which can be understood as "keris" is used, what we find is this:-

"Curigo" is associated with a king.

"Twék" is associated with an honour given to a common man for bravery in combat.

"keris/kris/cris" is associated with use in a hunt

The word keris is derived from "iris", to cut or to slice.

So it seems that in Old Javanese the word "keris" (however we wish to spell it now) did not necessarily mean the specific weapon that we now recognise as a keris.

Modern Javanese has been heavily influenced by Islamic languages and Islamic culture, the nature of the keris as it has been known for the past few hundred years has been heavily influenced by Islamic culture and the effect this culture has had on Javanese society.

What we think of as a keris now, if we are thinking in accordance with the Javanese idea of a keris now, is very probably not the same as what the Javanese people in Pre-Islamic Jawa thought of as a keris.

Modern Balinese has not been subject to the same influences as has Modern Javanese, and we will find many words in Modern Balinese that we will not find in Modern Javanese, even though both owe their foundations to Old Javanese.

Language is a mirror of the way in which the users of that language think, for example, in structuring a sentence do the speakers place an adjective before a word, or after a word, do they begin the sentence with the most important idea contained in that sentence, or do they introduce that idea later in the sentence?

Now, with all of the above in mind, please consider your question:-

"Could you please expand why such a piece would be regarded by Balinese as "a keris that is shaped like a sword" rather than "a sword that is shaped like a sword"?"

I believe that it is obvious that a "pedang keris" is a keris that is shaped like a pedang, ie, that it is a form of keris, rather than a form of pedang.

When we come to the word "tewek", we have the word that is found in Old Javanese as "twek", that Pigeaud translates as "kris", and that in the context of its use in the Nawanatya can indeed be nothing other than what we now know as a keris.

In Modern Balinese "tewek" has a specific meaning, and that meaning is as I have given it, so clearly in Balinese thought the idea of "keris" encompasses more than does the Javanese or other ideas of exactly what a keris is. In fact, in a video interview that I witnessed being filmed I heard Pande Wayan Suteja Neka defining the keris pedang (ie, ligan or keris tewek) as a form of keris, not as a form of pedang.

Your second question:-

"Is keris used here in a wider sense encompassing what would be regarded as tosan aji in Jawa?"

requires analysis of cultural specifics in both Javanese and Balinese society at the present time and here is not really the place for that. Stripped to bare bones, the most I can probably say here is that Margaret Wiener explains quite clearly exactly where the heirloom keris stands in modern Balinese society.

"Tosan aji" is a Javanese concept. In simple terms this phrase can be understood as "respected iron/honoured iron"

"tosan" = "iron" in Kromo > from tos/atos = "hard"

"aji" = "value, worth" in ngoko; aji has a number of derivatives that include but are not limited to "respect, honour, value highly, at a particular price,in the amount of"; "aji" has a secondary meaning of "king"; as "kaji-kaji" it means a magic formula or a talisman; it can also be understood as a variant of "kaji" which means and can be used as the title for, a person who has undertaken a pilgrimage to Mecca.

The above should give a very clear idea of exactly how the keris is thought of in traditional Islamic Javanese society, and in addition one of major principles involved in understanding Javanese thought and values in general.

Javanese people and Balinese people do not think within quite the same parameters.

22nd March 2020, 03:01 AM	#3
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,361	Hi Athanase, These swords have been discussed on this Forum over the last decade or more. One of the early discussions was here, and there are several more examples shown in that thread. Most of the threads relating to this sword have used the term cundrik, and they have often been attributed to Lombok. Ian. Last edited by Ian; 22nd March 2020 at 03:12 AM.

22nd March 2020, 12:54 AM	#1
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,989	Just an after thought. In respect of the word "tiuk" = "knife". This word has the legitimate alternative spellings, and thus pronunciations of "tihuk" and "tiyuk". In all cases the "k" is a glottal stop.

22nd March 2020, 01:22 AM	#2
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,989	Actually, if we want to use the name that was correct at the time this weapon was in fact being used as a weapon, we probably should name it as:- "Keris Tuwek" , this would have been correct usage up until at least the early 1950's. I doubt that you will find this name in any weapons reference, but it was correct usage before the present surge in "knowledge", much of which has been drawn from sources other than Bali.

22nd March 2020, 03:25 AM	#4
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,209	I actually think this blade bears only a slight resemblance to other blades presented here that have been called "cundrik" or "cuntrik". I also don't believe this blade is in the same category as those known by some collectors as Balinese wedung or tiuk pengentas. It does bear the most resemblance to the blade "Ki Pedang Nagaraja" that Alan has shown, though that blade is luk and this one straight. I would be most likely to refer to this as a keris pedang or perhaps just pedang.

22nd March 2020, 03:56 AM	#5
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,989	I reckon that pedang is probably as good as anything else, but if, just if we wish pay a nod of respect to what Balinese people themselves might refer to this sword as I think perhaps "Keris Pedang" or the older, more traditional "Keris Tewek" might be the way to go. The definition of "tewek" is "a keris that is shaped like a sword". Now, this requires us to think in a Balinese way about what a keris actually is, and that Balinese way aligns more closely with Pre-Islamic Jawa than with Islamic Jawa. Alternatively, we can turn to Lombok and the most respected Lalu Djelengga (alm.) and then we have a choice of cundrik or sundrik or berang. But if we choose to run with Lalu Djelengga we need to bear in mind that Lalu Djelengga was Muslim, not Balinese, so we are then using probably Sasak terminology to classify something that at least in the form that started this discussion, is decidedly Balinese. Now we really are touching on the sillyness of that game that is so beloved by all collectors in all fields. We strive to give something its correct name, but do we bother to define the time or place that will form the framework for that definition? Do we even understand the languages involved? My personal position on this is that geographic point of origin and place in time should be identified first, after that we should try to classify in accordance with the name that is most likely to have been used by the people of that geographic location at the time when the object in question was used. If we do not do this, we might just as well name any object in accordance with our own naming conventions, which would make the item under discussion here a sword, or perhaps short sword, decorated with a dragon or serpent.

24th March 2020, 01:34 AM	#7
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,989	Kai, to give a complete and accurate response to your question I would probably need to be Theodore Pigeaud, and frankly, I am not even worthy to be this gentleman's shadow, assuming of course that he were still to be with us, which he is not, he was promoted about 30 years ago. But I'll do my best to try, if only from the point of view as somebody who can only be regarded as an amateur in the fields involved. We need to go back into Old Javanese literature, works such as the Nagakertagama and the Nawanatya. If we read these we find that there are mentions of a number of weapon types and we do have some difficulty in working out exactly what these weapon types would be known as now, in the 21st century. For example, we have this passage in the Nagakertagama:- "Exterminated were the animals, thrusted, lanced, cut, crissed, dying without a gasp” the word "crissed" is of course a variant spelling of "krissed"/"kerissed", and in the original in Romanised Old Javanese the word is "kinris" (& angris, silah kris) and means to stab with a keris. In the Nawanatya a word used for the keris is "twek", another word used for keris is "curigo". If we look at the way in which each of these different words which can be understood as "keris" is used, what we find is this:- "Curigo" is associated with a king. "Twék" is associated with an honour given to a common man for bravery in combat. "keris/kris/cris" is associated with use in a hunt The word keris is derived from "iris", to cut or to slice. So it seems that in Old Javanese the word "keris" (however we wish to spell it now) did not necessarily mean the specific weapon that we now recognise as a keris. Modern Javanese has been heavily influenced by Islamic languages and Islamic culture, the nature of the keris as it has been known for the past few hundred years has been heavily influenced by Islamic culture and the effect this culture has had on Javanese society. What we think of as a keris now, if we are thinking in accordance with the Javanese idea of a keris now, is very probably not the same as what the Javanese people in Pre-Islamic Jawa thought of as a keris. Modern Balinese has not been subject to the same influences as has Modern Javanese, and we will find many words in Modern Balinese that we will not find in Modern Javanese, even though both owe their foundations to Old Javanese. Language is a mirror of the way in which the users of that language think, for example, in structuring a sentence do the speakers place an adjective before a word, or after a word, do they begin the sentence with the most important idea contained in that sentence, or do they introduce that idea later in the sentence? Now, with all of the above in mind, please consider your question:- "Could you please expand why such a piece would be regarded by Balinese as "a keris that is shaped like a sword" rather than "a sword that is shaped like a sword"?" I believe that it is obvious that a "pedang keris" is a keris that is shaped like a pedang, ie, that it is a form of keris, rather than a form of pedang. When we come to the word "tewek", we have the word that is found in Old Javanese as "twek", that Pigeaud translates as "kris", and that in the context of its use in the Nawanatya can indeed be nothing other than what we now know as a keris. In Modern Balinese "tewek" has a specific meaning, and that meaning is as I have given it, so clearly in Balinese thought the idea of "keris" encompasses more than does the Javanese or other ideas of exactly what a keris is. In fact, in a video interview that I witnessed being filmed I heard Pande Wayan Suteja Neka defining the keris pedang (ie, ligan or keris tewek) as a form of keris, not as a form of pedang. Your second question:- "Is keris used here in a wider sense encompassing what would be regarded as tosan aji in Jawa?" requires analysis of cultural specifics in both Javanese and Balinese society at the present time and here is not really the place for that. Stripped to bare bones, the most I can probably say here is that Margaret Wiener explains quite clearly exactly where the heirloom keris stands in modern Balinese society. "Tosan aji" is a Javanese concept. In simple terms this phrase can be understood as "respected iron/honoured iron" "tosan" = "iron" in Kromo > from tos/atos = "hard" "aji" = "value, worth" in ngoko; aji has a number of derivatives that include but are not limited to "respect, honour, value highly, at a particular price,in the amount of"; "aji" has a secondary meaning of "king"; as "kaji-kaji" it means a magic formula or a talisman; it can also be understood as a variant of "kaji" which means and can be used as the title for, a person who has undertaken a pilgrimage to Mecca. The above should give a very clear idea of exactly how the keris is thought of in traditional Islamic Javanese society, and in addition one of major principles involved in understanding Javanese thought and values in general. Javanese people and Balinese people do not think within quite the same parameters.