Long Pedang from Bali (or Lombok?)

A. G. Maisey · 21st March 2020, 12:27 PM

The word "tiuk" in Balinese means "knife", this object is 65cm. long, a bit too long for a knife.

As far as I am aware, the word "cundrik" does not exist in Balinese, but Lalu Djelengga uses it in his book, so apparently it is a legitimate term in Lombok for a shortish pedang, but the examples Djelengga gives differ substantially from the example we have here.

The word "cuntrik" (pron. chuntri(k) the "k" is a glottal stop) does exist which is clearly a variant spelling, and a picture of a "keris cuntrik" in the Den Pasar Museum is below.

In Balinese the usual word for a sword-like weapon is "peding", the Balinese variant on "pedang".

The word "cundrik" is usually taken as a Javanese word, where it is a generic term for a dagger, and also the name of a keris dhapur.

In any case, whatever we care to call this sword, it is a pretty nice thing.

EDIT

I just remembered this one in the Neka in Ubud.

This is "Ki Pedang Nagaraja". The text about this pedang refers to it as a "keris" with the dhapur pedang. We must remember that the text of "Keris Bali" is written in Bahasa Indonesia by a Javanese gentleman.

Henk · 21st March 2020, 04:31 PM

Hello Detlef,

Yes, I have seen and handled these tiuk pengentas with the belly shaped edge, also called here balinese wedung. Just as this one with the long blade.
I do remember the piece so well because i was smashed by its appearance.

Can you imagine? The houses of our hosts where complete museums with the most magnificent items and weapons. And as my late friend used to say and i often have to think with a smile to his words: We are in a museum, Henk. But this is better. We are allowed to touch everything. And he smiled.

Our hosts where collectors with their roots in Indonesia. I learned a lot in those days. You should be aware of the fact that a lot of the knowledge from those people who came from Indonesia to Holland cann't be found in books.

Henk · 21st March 2020, 04:34 PM

Alan,

Thank you for the ki pedang nagaraja. I do recognize an item in my collection wich couldn't be identified. Now i know what it is.

Lee · 21st March 2020, 05:56 PM

Alan,
Looking at your picture of the item labeled "keris cuntrik" in the Den Pasar Museum, is this item from Lew's collection essentially of the same type?

Additional images and description

I bought it for my replica Hanuman keris holder to hold and also because I had acquired a very nice spear with similar sleeves (that I shall share on the general forum once I have pictures ready).

A. G. Maisey · 21st March 2020, 09:43 PM

Yes Lee, I would be inclined to give it the same name.

HOWEVER

naming is always only applicable to a particular time, place, situation. If we decide to use a particular name for one or another object, I feel it is perhaps best to identify the reference for the name we use.

We think we know what a keris/kris/cris/creese is, but the word first appeared in Old Javanese, along with a few others that could well have at that time been the name for what we call a "keris" now. We simply do not know what the thing that we call a "keris" now was called in its place of origin in the 6th to 14th centuries.

In Old Javanese it seems possible that some weapons were given a name in a particular situation that represented the mode of use, so if the same weapon was used to thrust, rather than to slash, or cut, then the name changed.

The photo of the Neka piece that I posted is categorised as a "keris" and with the form of a pedang (dhapur). The same applies to the ligan, which is also named as "keris pedang".

In order to understand naming conventions in S. E. Asian Maritime societies --- and perhaps some other societies --- we need to understand not only the languages involved, but the way in which the people who used these languages thought.

A. G. Maisey · 22nd March 2020, 12:54 AM

Just an after thought.

In respect of the word "tiuk" = "knife".

This word has the legitimate alternative spellings, and thus pronunciations of "tihuk" and "tiyuk".

In all cases the "k" is a glottal stop.

A. G. Maisey · 22nd March 2020, 01:22 AM

Actually, if we want to use the name that was correct at the time this weapon was in fact being used as a weapon, we probably should name it as:-

"Keris Tuwek" , this would have been correct usage up until at least the early 1950's.

I doubt that you will find this name in any weapons reference, but it was correct usage before the present surge in "knowledge", much of which has been drawn from sources other than Bali.

Lee · 22nd March 2020, 04:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Yes Lee, I would be inclined to give it the same name.

HOWEVER

Thank you ... and ...understood.

Athanase · 23rd March 2020, 03:26 PM

Thank you for all your comments.
I think I'll make it simple and name it Pedang (or Peding).
For me the cundrik is a really different weapon, shorter and with a double edge. Besides, the only cundrik that I have isn't straight but has a wavy blade (and the only other that I saw at an antique dealer in France had the same blade, I have not yet found a cundrik with straight blade in my prices).

Sajen · 22nd March 2020, 03:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Henk

Can you imagine? The houses of our hosts where complete museums with the most magnificent items and weapons. And as my late friend used to say and i often have to think with a smile to his words: We are in a museum, Henk. But this is better. We are allowed to touch everything. And he smiled.

Yes Henk, I know similar collections!

Regards,
Detlef

21st March 2020, 12:27 PM	#1
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,989	The word "tiuk" in Balinese means "knife", this object is 65cm. long, a bit too long for a knife. As far as I am aware, the word "cundrik" does not exist in Balinese, but Lalu Djelengga uses it in his book, so apparently it is a legitimate term in Lombok for a shortish pedang, but the examples Djelengga gives differ substantially from the example we have here. The word "cuntrik" (pron. chuntri(k) the "k" is a glottal stop) does exist which is clearly a variant spelling, and a picture of a "keris cuntrik" in the Den Pasar Museum is below. In Balinese the usual word for a sword-like weapon is "peding", the Balinese variant on "pedang". The word "cundrik" is usually taken as a Javanese word, where it is a generic term for a dagger, and also the name of a keris dhapur. In any case, whatever we care to call this sword, it is a pretty nice thing. EDIT I just remembered this one in the Neka in Ubud. This is "Ki Pedang Nagaraja". The text about this pedang refers to it as a "keris" with the dhapur pedang. We must remember that the text of "Keris Bali" is written in Bahasa Indonesia by a Javanese gentleman. Attached Images Last edited by A. G. Maisey; 21st March 2020 at 12:59 PM.

21st March 2020, 05:56 PM	#4
Lee EAAF Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Upstate New York, USA Posts: 932	Alan, Looking at your picture of the item labeled "keris cuntrik" in the Den Pasar Museum, is this item from Lew's collection essentially of the same type? Additional images and description I bought it for my replica Hanuman keris holder to hold and also because I had acquired a very nice spear with similar sleeves (that I shall share on the general forum once I have pictures ready). Attached Images

21st March 2020, 04:31 PM	#2
Henk Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,209	Hello Detlef, Yes, I have seen and handled these tiuk pengentas with the belly shaped edge, also called here balinese wedung. Just as this one with the long blade. I do remember the piece so well because i was smashed by its appearance. Can you imagine? The houses of our hosts where complete museums with the most magnificent items and weapons. And as my late friend used to say and i often have to think with a smile to his words: We are in a museum, Henk. But this is better. We are allowed to touch everything. And he smiled. Our hosts where collectors with their roots in Indonesia. I learned a lot in those days. You should be aware of the fact that a lot of the knowledge from those people who came from Indonesia to Holland cann't be found in books.

21st March 2020, 04:34 PM	#3
Henk Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,209	Alan, Thank you for the ki pedang nagaraja. I do recognize an item in my collection wich couldn't be identified. Now i know what it is.

21st March 2020, 09:43 PM	#5
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,989	Yes Lee, I would be inclined to give it the same name. HOWEVER naming is always only applicable to a particular time, place, situation. If we decide to use a particular name for one or another object, I feel it is perhaps best to identify the reference for the name we use. We think we know what a keris/kris/cris/creese is, but the word first appeared in Old Javanese, along with a few others that could well have at that time been the name for what we call a "keris" now. We simply do not know what the thing that we call a "keris" now was called in its place of origin in the 6th to 14th centuries. In Old Javanese it seems possible that some weapons were given a name in a particular situation that represented the mode of use, so if the same weapon was used to thrust, rather than to slash, or cut, then the name changed. The photo of the Neka piece that I posted is categorised as a "keris" and with the form of a pedang (dhapur). The same applies to the ligan, which is also named as "keris pedang". In order to understand naming conventions in S. E. Asian Maritime societies --- and perhaps some other societies --- we need to understand not only the languages involved, but the way in which the people who used these languages thought.

22nd March 2020, 12:54 AM	#6
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,989	Just an after thought. In respect of the word "tiuk" = "knife". This word has the legitimate alternative spellings, and thus pronunciations of "tihuk" and "tiyuk". In all cases the "k" is a glottal stop.

22nd March 2020, 01:22 AM	#7
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,989	Actually, if we want to use the name that was correct at the time this weapon was in fact being used as a weapon, we probably should name it as:- "Keris Tuwek" , this would have been correct usage up until at least the early 1950's. I doubt that you will find this name in any weapons reference, but it was correct usage before the present surge in "knowledge", much of which has been drawn from sources other than Bali.

23rd March 2020, 03:26 PM	#9
Athanase Member Join Date: Mar 2016 Location: Paris (France) Posts: 417	Thank you for all your comments. I think I'll make it simple and name it Pedang (or Peding). For me the cundrik is a really different weapon, shorter and with a double edge. Besides, the only cundrik that I have isn't straight but has a wavy blade (and the only other that I saw at an antique dealer in France had the same blade, I have not yet found a cundrik with straight blade in my prices).