Native American Sword (Pawnee/Otoe)

BAW · 9th March 2020, 06:54 AM

In answer to Jim McDougals' query as to how I concluded that the 1832 foot artillery sword is the "broadsword" used by John Browns' men at Pottawatomie: An 1832 artillery sword is displayed at the John Brown Museum State Historic Site in Osawatomie, Kansas, where it is described as a "Broadsword similar to ones used by Brown and his sons", and another displayed at Harpers Ferry National Historic Park in Harpers Ferry, W. Virginia, is described as a sword "believed to have been carried by one of John Browns' men in a raid against pro-slavery settlers in Pottawotamie, Kansas." Neither description mentions that it is a Model 1832 foot artillery sword, or that it was a current U.S. military item.

Jim McDougall · 9th March 2020, 07:47 PM

BAW, I would like to thank you for acknowledging my posts and responding to my question concerning the comments on the 'broadswords' (as per news accounts) used by John Brown's men in these events and shown in museum contexts as similar or believed to have been used.

In these cases concerning museum descriptions, and display of items in 'soft' association it is often hard to rely on them to qualify various elements in the history of a particular form. However, it the cases you cite, it does seem compellingly plausible that these were indeed the curious M1832 foot artillery swords.

These swords (which were double edged so in fact broadswords by definition) were as noted M1832 and produced by Ames Sword Co. of Chicopee, Mass. in considerable numbers between then and 1862. While intended for use by the foot artillery, in 1834 and 39 they were ordered to be used by infantry as well.
Harold Peterson ("The American Sword" ,1954/73) notes these were unwieldy and completely unsuitable for combat. In their use they served mostly in a utility purpose.

This is an interesting and well known description of these somewhat defying the plausibility of these particular weapons being used by the Pawnee, Otoe or any other American Indian tribe. this is especially notable in view of the reticence of warriors to even use other types of swords combatively in any measurable degree. That is why I consider that these examples may likely be photographers props.

Having said that, and returning to the M1832 swords, it is interesting to know about a number of these being found under floor in excavations of the San Diego de Alcala mission. This was one of the first missions in California and in the 1840s given to an officer of the California Battalion. After the Treaty of Cahuenga it seems he continued providing support for US military so it would be interesting to discover more on what units were there.
The idea of being hidden for possible sale later seems odd, but even though not especially valuable as a weapon, these blades could be repurposed, as most items often were in these times in these areas.

This of course digresses from the original topic here, so I would very much like to discuss further via private message if possible. Having grown up in Southern Calif. I developed a very keen interest in Spanish colonial history as well as western history. Now in Texas, I am typically near the Alamo, where I have been interested in many of the excavations undertaken there.

Thank you again for the response.

ParikiMark · 26th March 2020, 09:11 AM

Thanks everyone for contributing! This has been most instructive and I've learned a lot. The impact of metal weapons (inc. armor) on Native North American societies has been overshadowed by firearms. I got interested in this subject after stumbling upon obscure references to metal weapons and armor in American Indian oral traditions. I really appreciate your contributions to this thread!

BAW · 31st March 2020, 10:23 PM

I have run out of facts on the subject, but ParikiMarks original posting solicited "thoughts", of which I have an abundance. These are my personal opinions, neither provable nor unprovable, and if others are not offended by my sharing them, I for my part, promise not to be offended if no one agrees with me.
Mention was made of the 1832 swords' worthlessness in combat, and it probably would have been for defending a battery against saber-swinging horsemen or a company of infantry armed with bayonets, but would probably be very useful in the disorganized melee of single combats practiced by the Kansas Jayhawkers, who probably looked upon them as a sort of super-Bowie knife. I have no doubt that American Plains Indians looked on them the same way. Contrary to the Hollywood legend, American Indians did most of their fighting against other Indians. The average length of the Plains Indian stone-headed war clubs in my collection is 23 inches. I imagine that an Indian would find a 25 inch sword a suitable weapon for an encounter with an opponent armed with a stone club. As for Indians considering a sword to be a "symbol of status", I have no doubt that ownership of a sword conferred status in the same way that the ownership of a repeating rifle did, but it does not necessarily follow that the owner considered either sword or rifle as anything other than an efficient weapon for practical use.
I am also not sure that the swords found at Mission San Diego de Alcala were intended to be "re-purposed." They were the same size as some of the shorter examples of the espada ancha traditionally carried fixed to the saddle by the native Californios, and were a great deal more decorative. Had he been successful in getting out the gate with them, the thief probably would have found a ready market..

Gavin Nugent · 11th October 2020, 10:10 PM

Adding this for visual references from a 2006 sale.

By appearances they were coveted weapons.

Gavin

Jim McDougall · 12th October 2020, 04:49 AM

They were very much weapons of status and prestige, as well as symbolic of authority and power.
Colin Taylor's works note various cases of the sword in American Indian culture and they are sometimes seen in pictographs and drawings. Apparently a good number of British M1796 light cavalry sabers came into America probably after 1830s. One trading post , the Bordeaux near Chadron, Nebraska seems to have acquired a good number of these and traded to various tribes.
The Yankton Sioux chief To-ka-cou had one which represented his power and his tribe entirely recognized this. The Crow also had a red painted example representing supernatural power.

While not used in the traditional sense, as a weapon, they were considered profoundly in the act of 'counting coup' on the battlefield, probably with recognition of these as in use by the 'long knives' (American cavalry).

26th March 2020, 09:11 AM	#3
ParikiMark Member Join Date: Feb 2020 Location: Doha, Qatar Posts: 4	Crooked Hand's Sword (Pawnee) Thanks everyone for contributing! This has been most instructive and I've learned a lot. The impact of metal weapons (inc. armor) on Native North American societies has been overshadowed by firearms. I got interested in this subject after stumbling upon obscure references to metal weapons and armor in American Indian oral traditions. I really appreciate your contributions to this thread!

11th October 2020, 10:10 PM	#5
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	Adding this for visual references from a 2006 sale. By appearances they were coveted weapons. Gavin Attached Images

9th March 2020, 06:54 AM	#1
BAW Member Join Date: Nov 2019 Posts: 6	In answer to Jim McDougals' query as to how I concluded that the 1832 foot artillery sword is the "broadsword" used by John Browns' men at Pottawatomie: An 1832 artillery sword is displayed at the John Brown Museum State Historic Site in Osawatomie, Kansas, where it is described as a "Broadsword similar to ones used by Brown and his sons", and another displayed at Harpers Ferry National Historic Park in Harpers Ferry, W. Virginia, is described as a sword "believed to have been carried by one of John Browns' men in a raid against pro-slavery settlers in Pottawotamie, Kansas." Neither description mentions that it is a Model 1832 foot artillery sword, or that it was a current U.S. military item.

9th March 2020, 07:47 PM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,281	BAW, I would like to thank you for acknowledging my posts and responding to my question concerning the comments on the 'broadswords' (as per news accounts) used by John Brown's men in these events and shown in museum contexts as similar or believed to have been used. In these cases concerning museum descriptions, and display of items in 'soft' association it is often hard to rely on them to qualify various elements in the history of a particular form. However, it the cases you cite, it does seem compellingly plausible that these were indeed the curious M1832 foot artillery swords. These swords (which were double edged so in fact broadswords by definition) were as noted M1832 and produced by Ames Sword Co. of Chicopee, Mass. in considerable numbers between then and 1862. While intended for use by the foot artillery, in 1834 and 39 they were ordered to be used by infantry as well. Harold Peterson ("The American Sword" ,1954/73) notes these were unwieldy and completely unsuitable for combat. In their use they served mostly in a utility purpose. This is an interesting and well known description of these somewhat defying the plausibility of these particular weapons being used by the Pawnee, Otoe or any other American Indian tribe. this is especially notable in view of the reticence of warriors to even use other types of swords combatively in any measurable degree. That is why I consider that these examples may likely be photographers props. Having said that, and returning to the M1832 swords, it is interesting to know about a number of these being found under floor in excavations of the San Diego de Alcala mission. This was one of the first missions in California and in the 1840s given to an officer of the California Battalion. After the Treaty of Cahuenga it seems he continued providing support for US military so it would be interesting to discover more on what units were there. The idea of being hidden for possible sale later seems odd, but even though not especially valuable as a weapon, these blades could be repurposed, as most items often were in these times in these areas. This of course digresses from the original topic here, so I would very much like to discuss further via private message if possible. Having grown up in Southern Calif. I developed a very keen interest in Spanish colonial history as well as western history. Now in Texas, I am typically near the Alamo, where I have been interested in many of the excavations undertaken there. Thank you again for the response.

31st March 2020, 10:23 PM	#4
BAW Member Join Date: Nov 2019 Posts: 6	I have run out of facts on the subject, but ParikiMarks original posting solicited "thoughts", of which I have an abundance. These are my personal opinions, neither provable nor unprovable, and if others are not offended by my sharing them, I for my part, promise not to be offended if no one agrees with me. Mention was made of the 1832 swords' worthlessness in combat, and it probably would have been for defending a battery against saber-swinging horsemen or a company of infantry armed with bayonets, but would probably be very useful in the disorganized melee of single combats practiced by the Kansas Jayhawkers, who probably looked upon them as a sort of super-Bowie knife. I have no doubt that American Plains Indians looked on them the same way. Contrary to the Hollywood legend, American Indians did most of their fighting against other Indians. The average length of the Plains Indian stone-headed war clubs in my collection is 23 inches. I imagine that an Indian would find a 25 inch sword a suitable weapon for an encounter with an opponent armed with a stone club. As for Indians considering a sword to be a "symbol of status", I have no doubt that ownership of a sword conferred status in the same way that the ownership of a repeating rifle did, but it does not necessarily follow that the owner considered either sword or rifle as anything other than an efficient weapon for practical use. I am also not sure that the swords found at Mission San Diego de Alcala were intended to be "re-purposed." They were the same size as some of the shorter examples of the espada ancha traditionally carried fixed to the saddle by the native Californios, and were a great deal more decorative. Had he been successful in getting out the gate with them, the thief probably would have found a ready market..

12th October 2020, 04:49 AM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,281	They were very much weapons of status and prestige, as well as symbolic of authority and power. Colin Taylor's works note various cases of the sword in American Indian culture and they are sometimes seen in pictographs and drawings. Apparently a good number of British M1796 light cavalry sabers came into America probably after 1830s. One trading post , the Bordeaux near Chadron, Nebraska seems to have acquired a good number of these and traded to various tribes. The Yankton Sioux chief To-ka-cou had one which represented his power and his tribe entirely recognized this. The Crow also had a red painted example representing supernatural power. While not used in the traditional sense, as a weapon, they were considered profoundly in the act of 'counting coup' on the battlefield, probably with recognition of these as in use by the 'long knives' (American cavalry).