Native American Sword (Pawnee/Otoe)

BAW · 2nd March 2020, 12:22 AM

The sword shown in the pictures look very much like the U.S. model 1832 heavy artillery sword, though it is hard to see the distinctive fullers and wasp-waisted blade that would make identification more certain.
It is a little-known fact that, though the model 1832 sword was current military issue and therefore not readily obtainable by civilians, a number of them were made available to "free state" guerillas during the so-called "Kansas- Nebraska War" in the late 1850's. Whether this was done through official or non-official channels is unknown, but photographs from the era show them being worn by free state partisans, and the swords used to murder 5 "Jayhawker" prisoners during the Pottawotamie Massacre in 1856, though referred to as "broadswords" in newspaper accounts, were actually 1832 artillery swords. As the Kansas-Nebraska War took place in the middle of Otoe and Pawnee territory, it is possible that Indians obtained them from the Free Staters, or perhaps from whatever source supplied them to the Free Staters.
Incidentally, many years ago I worked on an archaeological project at Mission San Diego de Alcala, in San Diego, California, a mission built in the 18th century and occupied by U.S. troops as barracks in the 1850's. In a cavity beneath a tile floor we discovered a cache of several model 1832 artillery swords. The assumption was that they had been stolen by a soldier who intended to sell them, but for some reason never retrieved them.

Ian · 4th March 2020, 08:55 PM

BAW,

Thank you for this very informative post and the first hand knowledge of the dig in San Diego. Great to have your expertise here.

Ian.

ParikiMark · 6th March 2020, 08:24 AM

Thanks so much for this highly useful information, BAW!!! This provides some useful context and possible new avenues to look at. Much appreciated!

Kubur · 6th March 2020, 04:41 PM

Hi

Of course there is 95% of chances that these short swords are US in origin.
But remember that the US artillery sword is based on the French model.
This model existed since the 18th c. and Lafayette with the models 1767-1771 and 1774-1783.

https://www.photo.rmn.fr/archive/06-...NU0P2WKB1.html

I'm not in the head of a 19th c. Indian, but a sword with an eagle head is a really cool totem... Think about it....
So you need to look at the photos closer, maybe these Indians had French swords.

Kubur

kronckew · 7th March 2020, 02:08 PM

see also my post here: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showpo...9&postcount=38

Many French and other european Gladius style infantry swords did not have the waisted and fullered blade of the US Artillery one. Even a brit one like in the other post of mine from the UK Land Transport Corps. French mid 19c and later ones had a flattened diamond x-section, no fullers at all.

an oddball one as another example: My Double edged 'Yataghan' blade, both edges sharp.

2nd March 2020, 12:22 AM	#1
BAW Member Join Date: Nov 2019 Posts: 6	re. Native American sword The sword shown in the pictures look very much like the U.S. model 1832 heavy artillery sword, though it is hard to see the distinctive fullers and wasp-waisted blade that would make identification more certain. It is a little-known fact that, though the model 1832 sword was current military issue and therefore not readily obtainable by civilians, a number of them were made available to "free state" guerillas during the so-called "Kansas- Nebraska War" in the late 1850's. Whether this was done through official or non-official channels is unknown, but photographs from the era show them being worn by free state partisans, and the swords used to murder 5 "Jayhawker" prisoners during the Pottawotamie Massacre in 1856, though referred to as "broadswords" in newspaper accounts, were actually 1832 artillery swords. As the Kansas-Nebraska War took place in the middle of Otoe and Pawnee territory, it is possible that Indians obtained them from the Free Staters, or perhaps from whatever source supplied them to the Free Staters. Incidentally, many years ago I worked on an archaeological project at Mission San Diego de Alcala, in San Diego, California, a mission built in the 18th century and occupied by U.S. troops as barracks in the 1850's. In a cavity beneath a tile floor we discovered a cache of several model 1832 artillery swords. The assumption was that they had been stolen by a soldier who intended to sell them, but for some reason never retrieved them.

6th March 2020, 08:24 AM	#3
ParikiMark Member Join Date: Feb 2020 Location: Doha, Qatar Posts: 4	Crooked Hand's Sword (Pawnee) Thanks so much for this highly useful information, BAW!!! This provides some useful context and possible new avenues to look at. Much appreciated!

6th March 2020, 04:41 PM	#4
Kubur Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 2,145	Hi Of course there is 95% of chances that these short swords are US in origin. But remember that the US artillery sword is based on the French model. This model existed since the 18th c. and Lafayette with the models 1767-1771 and 1774-1783. https://www.photo.rmn.fr/archive/06-...NU0P2WKB1.html I'm not in the head of a 19th c. Indian, but a sword with an eagle head is a really cool totem... Think about it.... So you need to look at the photos closer, maybe these Indians had French swords. Kubur Attached Images

7th March 2020, 02:08 PM	#5
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,215	see also my post here: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showpo...9&postcount=38 Many French and other european Gladius style infantry swords did not have the waisted and fullered blade of the US Artillery one. Even a brit one like in the other post of mine from the UK Land Transport Corps. French mid 19c and later ones had a flattened diamond x-section, no fullers at all. an oddball one as another example: My Double edged 'Yataghan' blade, both edges sharp. Attached Images

4th March 2020, 08:55 PM	#2
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,361	BAW, Thank you for this very informative post and the first hand knowledge of the dig in San Diego. Great to have your expertise here. Ian.