Persian (?) shamshir.

ariel · 22nd February 2020, 10:14 PM

Oliver,
BTW, do you know why the country is Persia, but they themselves call their language not Parsi, but Farsi?

Kubur · 22nd February 2020, 11:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

Oliver,
BTW, do you know why the country is Persia, but they themselves call their language not Parsi, but Farsi?

I think the name of the country is Iran since the Bronze age...

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

The upper part of the blade has silver koft, not typical for Persia, but very frequent on Arabian ( especially Syrian ) ones..

I agree with Ariel and Oliver, Syrian or around.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

The upper langet is surrounded by wire (?), - another Arabian feature.

It looks like a piece of textile added later

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oliver Pinchot

The guard is also an earlier Ottoman style but similar are found on some later sabers.
.

I agree and disagree, you have old Persian guards like that too.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oliver Pinchot

We can say the following: the grips, pommel and koftgari on the blade are likely Ottoman provincial work (Arab provinces.) However, closer examination of the motifs may prove otherwise.
.

This is wise and clever. I can translate it as:
We don't know yet...

mariusgmioc · 23rd February 2020, 12:21 AM

To my eyes, this type of "wootz" is early 19th century or later.

The style of the hilt looks Syrian but the blade looks North Indian/Afghan.

Interested Party · 23rd February 2020, 01:42 AM

Has any one compared the fuller layout of this blade to plate 29 of Y. Miller's Caucasian Arms from the State Hermitage Museum, St. Petersburg or Figure 99 from A Study of the Eastern Sword ? Did the "narrow fullers interspersed with flat areas" originate in Iran and move Afghanistan or vice versa?

ariel · 23rd February 2020, 05:38 AM

Persian blades as a rule had no fullers at all. Later on they might have had one wide fuller.

Kubur · 23rd February 2020, 07:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

Persian blades as a rule had no fullers at all. Later on they might have had one wide fuller.

Like this one for example...
I know Ariel you will tell me look at the cut in the ricasso and the dots.
Yes this blade is Indian.
But i wanted to point out that I saw many Persian shamshirs with such blades.
With all the respect that I have for Afghan weapons

I don't believe that Afghans could do that so it has to be Indian.

So if the blade is Indian and the hilt Sindhi or Baluchi, I think Sylektis, that we are going to find the origin of your sword...

Kubur · 23rd February 2020, 09:22 AM

I'm very sorry guys, but I won't surrender too quickly.

The blade that I posted previously is Indian and this kind of blade makes you think that Skylektis 's sword is Indian.

But if you look at these two beauties, they are persians.

The Persian blades have very nice and regular fullers...

An Afsharid gold-damascened steel sword ( shamshir)
Persia, 18th Century
the single-edged steel blade of curved form with single fuller, the blade widening towards the double-edged tip with chiselled palmette at transition, decorated in gold overlay to one side near the forte with an inscription-filled cartouche, above and below palmette cartouches filled with foliate interlace, the crossguard decorated in gold overlay with scrolling tendrils overlaid with flowerheads, the quillons in the form of dragon heads, horn grips
85 cm. long
For a shamshir with an almost identical crossguard dated to the Afsharid period in the Military Museum of Tehran see Manouchehr M Khorasani, Arms and Armour from Iran, Tubingen, 2006, p. 488. Mu'allim Misri made four other recorded shamshirs: one is in the Prince of Wales Museum, Bombay, another in the Military Museum, Tehran, and another two signed with his name are in the Historisches Museum, Bern (ibid, p.177, and cat.80).

and

A fine Qajar shamshir
Iran, mid-19th century
Curved 34 inch crucible steel blade with fullered yelman, 29 inch central fuller and below the spine, a series of short fullers, the interstices between with small inlaid gold panels of leaves and blossoms; the back side with eight fullers extending to the hilt; the front side with seven fullers, the lowermost stopping above the inlaid gold inscription panels and scrolling to enclose the end of the central fuller. Steel guard of familiar form exhibiting slight traces of overlaid gold florals. Hilt comprising marine ivory gripscales, silver wire ferrule and silver pommel cap molded with florals, the grip spine chased with floral meander highlighted with gold overlay. With original brown leather-covered scabbard, the silver mounts with embossed and punched floral and arabesque decoration. See note below for detailed analysis and translation of inscriptions kindly provided by Dr. Monouchehr Moshtagh Khorasani.

Note: Period: Early Qajar period
Analysis by Dr. Manouchehr Moshtagh Khorasani:
Inscriptions: The horizontal inscriptions read:
Ze huše Falātun damaš tiztar [upper part]
Ze abruye deldār xunriz tar [lower part]
Its edge [literally, tail] is sharper than the intelligence of Plato! It sheds more blood than the eyebrows of the beloved. Persian literature always refers to eyebrows as one of the physical beauties of women. This inscription is often found on the quality qaddare (short one edged swords) from the Qajar period of Iran. For an example from the Military Museum of Tehran see Arms and Armor from Iran, Khorasani, 2006, Cat. 190).
The circular gold-inlaid cartouche consists of different parts. The upper part is one of the attributes of God and reads: ho wal aziz ﻫﻭﺍﻟﻌﺰﻴﺰ (Oh the Forgiver). The cartouche in the middle reads Amal-e Mo'alam MesrI ﻋﻤﻞﺴﻠﻄﺎﻦﻤﻌﻠﻢﻤﺼﺭﻯ (The work of Soltan Mo'alam Mesri). The maker's mark amal-e Mesri Mo'alam ﻤﻌﻠﻡ ﻤﺼﺮﻯ ﻋﻤﻞ or amal-e Mo'alam Mesri ﻤﺼﺮﻯ ﻤﻌﻠﻡ ﻋﻤﻞ (The work of Mesri Mo'alam or the work of Mo'lam Mesri). Note that amal ﻋﻤﻞ (n) means "work" and Mesri Mo'alam ﻤﻌﻠﻡ ﻤﺼﺮﻯ (n) is a name. A sword signed by amal-e Mesri Mo'alam ﻤﻌﻠﻡ ﻤﺼﺮﻯ ﻋﻤﻞ and attributed to Sāh Safi is kept in the Military Museum of Tehran. For more information see Arms and Armor from Iran (Khorasani, Cat. 80). Another shamshir with this maker's mark can be found on a Shamshir attributed to Mohammad Shah Qajar (dated 1817) in the Military Museum of Tehran (see Arms and Armor from Iran, Khorasani, Cat. 159).
Inscriptions on the other edge of the cartouche read: Ya Qahaer al-Adow ﻳﺎﻗﺎﻫﺮﺍﻟﻌﺩﻭ (Oh the conquerer of enemies). This is another attribute of God.
The inscription on the corner of the cartouche is Ya Moth'her Alajaieb ﺍﻠﻌﺠﺍﺌﺐ ﻤﻈﻬﺮ ﻴﺎ (Oh the revealer of miracles) which is part of the famed prayer Nāde Ali ﻨﺎﺪﻋﻠﻰ (prayer of Nāde Ali). This prayer is a call upon Ali the first Imam of the Shiites. This prayer is used on many scabbard fittings of swords from the Safavid period.
The blade has the pattern of pulād-e jŏhardār-e mošabak ﻤﺸﺑﮏ ﺟﻭﻫﺮﺪﺍﺭ ﭘﻮﻻﺩ (crucible damascus steel with net pattern or a type of crucible damascus steel with woodgrain pattern). For this pattern see Lexicon of Arms and Armor from Iran, 2010).

23rd February 2020, 09:22 AM	#7
Kubur Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 2,145	I'm very sorry guys, but I won't surrender too quickly. The blade that I posted previously is Indian and this kind of blade makes you think that Skylektis 's sword is Indian. But if you look at these two beauties, they are persians. The Persian blades have very nice and regular fullers... An Afsharid gold-damascened steel sword ( shamshir) Persia, 18th Century the single-edged steel blade of curved form with single fuller, the blade widening towards the double-edged tip with chiselled palmette at transition, decorated in gold overlay to one side near the forte with an inscription-filled cartouche, above and below palmette cartouches filled with foliate interlace, the crossguard decorated in gold overlay with scrolling tendrils overlaid with flowerheads, the quillons in the form of dragon heads, horn grips 85 cm. long For a shamshir with an almost identical crossguard dated to the Afsharid period in the Military Museum of Tehran see Manouchehr M Khorasani, Arms and Armour from Iran, Tubingen, 2006, p. 488. Mu'allim Misri made four other recorded shamshirs: one is in the Prince of Wales Museum, Bombay, another in the Military Museum, Tehran, and another two signed with his name are in the Historisches Museum, Bern (ibid, p.177, and cat.80). and A fine Qajar shamshir Iran, mid-19th century Curved 34 inch crucible steel blade with fullered yelman, 29 inch central fuller and below the spine, a series of short fullers, the interstices between with small inlaid gold panels of leaves and blossoms; the back side with eight fullers extending to the hilt; the front side with seven fullers, the lowermost stopping above the inlaid gold inscription panels and scrolling to enclose the end of the central fuller. Steel guard of familiar form exhibiting slight traces of overlaid gold florals. Hilt comprising marine ivory gripscales, silver wire ferrule and silver pommel cap molded with florals, the grip spine chased with floral meander highlighted with gold overlay. With original brown leather-covered scabbard, the silver mounts with embossed and punched floral and arabesque decoration. See note below for detailed analysis and translation of inscriptions kindly provided by Dr. Monouchehr Moshtagh Khorasani. Note: Period: Early Qajar period Analysis by Dr. Manouchehr Moshtagh Khorasani: Inscriptions: The horizontal inscriptions read: Ze huše Falātun damaš tiztar [upper part] Ze abruye deldār xunriz tar [lower part] Its edge [literally, tail] is sharper than the intelligence of Plato! It sheds more blood than the eyebrows of the beloved. Persian literature always refers to eyebrows as one of the physical beauties of women. This inscription is often found on the quality qaddare (short one edged swords) from the Qajar period of Iran. For an example from the Military Museum of Tehran see Arms and Armor from Iran, Khorasani, 2006, Cat. 190). The circular gold-inlaid cartouche consists of different parts. The upper part is one of the attributes of God and reads: ho wal aziz ﻫﻭﺍﻟﻌﺰﻴﺰ (Oh the Forgiver). The cartouche in the middle reads Amal-e Mo'alam MesrI ﻋﻤﻞﺴﻠﻄﺎﻦﻤﻌﻠﻢﻤﺼﺭﻯ (The work of Soltan Mo'alam Mesri). The maker's mark amal-e Mesri Mo'alam ﻤﻌﻠﻡ ﻤﺼﺮﻯ ﻋﻤﻞ or amal-e Mo'alam Mesri ﻤﺼﺮﻯ ﻤﻌﻠﻡ ﻋﻤﻞ (The work of Mesri Mo'alam or the work of Mo'lam Mesri). Note that amal ﻋﻤﻞ (n) means "work" and Mesri Mo'alam ﻤﻌﻠﻡ ﻤﺼﺮﻯ (n) is a name. A sword signed by amal-e Mesri Mo'alam ﻤﻌﻠﻡ ﻤﺼﺮﻯ ﻋﻤﻞ and attributed to Sāh Safi is kept in the Military Museum of Tehran. For more information see Arms and Armor from Iran (Khorasani, Cat. 80). Another shamshir with this maker's mark can be found on a Shamshir attributed to Mohammad Shah Qajar (dated 1817) in the Military Museum of Tehran (see Arms and Armor from Iran, Khorasani, Cat. 159). Inscriptions on the other edge of the cartouche read: Ya Qahaer al-Adow ﻳﺎﻗﺎﻫﺮﺍﻟﻌﺩﻭ (Oh the conquerer of enemies). This is another attribute of God. The inscription on the corner of the cartouche is Ya Moth'her Alajaieb ﺍﻠﻌﺠﺍﺌﺐ ﻤﻈﻬﺮ ﻴﺎ (Oh the revealer of miracles) which is part of the famed prayer Nāde Ali ﻨﺎﺪﻋﻠﻰ (prayer of Nāde Ali). This prayer is a call upon Ali the first Imam of the Shiites. This prayer is used on many scabbard fittings of swords from the Safavid period. The blade has the pattern of pulād-e jŏhardār-e mošabak ﻤﺸﺑﮏ ﺟﻭﻫﺮﺪﺍﺭ ﭘﻮﻻﺩ (crucible damascus steel with net pattern or a type of crucible damascus steel with woodgrain pattern). For this pattern see Lexicon of Arms and Armor from Iran, 2010). Attached Images

22nd February 2020, 10:14 PM	#1
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Oliver, BTW, do you know why the country is Persia, but they themselves call their language not Parsi, but Farsi?

23rd February 2020, 12:21 AM	#3
mariusgmioc Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: Austria Posts: 1,911	To my eyes, this type of "wootz" is early 19th century or later. The style of the hilt looks Syrian but the blade looks North Indian/Afghan.

23rd February 2020, 01:42 AM	#4
Interested Party Member Join Date: Dec 2019 Location: Eastern Sierra Posts: 497	Has any one compared the fuller layout of this blade to plate 29 of Y. Miller's Caucasian Arms from the State Hermitage Museum, St. Petersburg or Figure 99 from A Study of the Eastern Sword ? Did the "narrow fullers interspersed with flat areas" originate in Iran and move Afghanistan or vice versa?

23rd February 2020, 05:38 AM	#5
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Persian blades as a rule had no fullers at all. Later on they might have had one wide fuller.