Bugis keris pamor pattern name

A. G. Maisey · 30th January 2020, 12:09 PM

Interesting Jean.

Perhaps now you might understand the reason why I take very little notice of books.

The names that this most respected publication gives to these illustrated motifs are, I have no doubt absolutely correct.

In Europe.

But regrettably, absolutely incorrect according to the people from whom I learnt, who lived, and in some cases, still live, in Solo Jawa Tengah.

Also, absolutely incorrect according to the gentleman who made this keris.

But really, we should not be too critical about the fact that the people in Solo who made keris with these pamors used different names for them than did the people who have written about them. They had probably never read the books , so they just went on naming these pamors as they had learnt from others before them.

As for the certificate, well I guess its a matter of exactly who we place the most belief in:- makers, or administrators.

Actually, these European sources do not stand alone. I think perhaps Harsrinuksmo might also use names that he sourced from somewhere other than Solo.

I've never seen this "Pamor Atlas", but I have seen the Tammens pamor volume. There is a bit in that doesn't quite fit in with Solo ideas too.

As I think most of us already know:- there is no universal agreement, my background is Solo, Empu Suparman, Empu Pauzan, several m'ranggis, several dealers, several other makers who were/are pandes, not empus. I'm happy to stick with my sources, others can select whatever source they wish.

Jean · 30th January 2020, 02:03 PM

Thank you Alan, and I fully agree with you that the names of the kris features vary significantly according to the geographic origin or the people of reference, and my comments were just to demonstrate it.
I checked that Harsinuskmo also shows pamor Wiji Timun as a "row of cuncumber seeds" in the center of the blade (page 532 of the EK) and he may have been the source of reference for other authors like Tammens (vol.2 page 161).
As you correctly pointed out, the pamor pattern on Anthony's blade would be named as Wiji Timun in Java, but not applicable to a supposedly Buginese blade?
Regards

David · 30th January 2020, 07:10 PM

Interesting discussion on the naming of pamor.
My only contribution here is this photo of a cucumber cut lengthwise. Which of these pamor patterns looks most like the seed pattern as found in the the fruit of the cucumber?

A. G. Maisey · 30th January 2020, 08:04 PM

I don't know that we can say that it is the universal name in Jawa Jean, but it is certainly the name amongst the people whom I know in Solo --- down the road in Jogja it could well be different.

Yes, the Bugis people could well have an entirely different name again.

30th January 2020, 12:09 PM	#1
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,013	Interesting Jean. Perhaps now you might understand the reason why I take very little notice of books. The names that this most respected publication gives to these illustrated motifs are, I have no doubt absolutely correct. In Europe. But regrettably, absolutely incorrect according to the people from whom I learnt, who lived, and in some cases, still live, in Solo Jawa Tengah. Also, absolutely incorrect according to the gentleman who made this keris. But really, we should not be too critical about the fact that the people in Solo who made keris with these pamors used different names for them than did the people who have written about them. They had probably never read the books , so they just went on naming these pamors as they had learnt from others before them. As for the certificate, well I guess its a matter of exactly who we place the most belief in:- makers, or administrators. Actually, these European sources do not stand alone. I think perhaps Harsrinuksmo might also use names that he sourced from somewhere other than Solo. I've never seen this "Pamor Atlas", but I have seen the Tammens pamor volume. There is a bit in that doesn't quite fit in with Solo ideas too. As I think most of us already know:- there is no universal agreement, my background is Solo, Empu Suparman, Empu Pauzan, several m'ranggis, several dealers, several other makers who were/are pandes, not empus. I'm happy to stick with my sources, others can select whatever source they wish. Last edited by A. G. Maisey; 30th January 2020 at 12:29 PM.

30th January 2020, 07:10 PM	#3
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,218	Interesting discussion on the naming of pamor. My only contribution here is this photo of a cucumber cut lengthwise. Which of these pamor patterns looks most like the seed pattern as found in the the fruit of the cucumber? Attached Images

30th January 2020, 02:03 PM	#2
Jean Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,740	Thank you Alan, and I fully agree with you that the names of the kris features vary significantly according to the geographic origin or the people of reference, and my comments were just to demonstrate it. I checked that Harsinuskmo also shows pamor Wiji Timun as a "row of cuncumber seeds" in the center of the blade (page 532 of the EK) and he may have been the source of reference for other authors like Tammens (vol.2 page 161). As you correctly pointed out, the pamor pattern on Anthony's blade would be named as Wiji Timun in Java, but not applicable to a supposedly Buginese blade? Regards

30th January 2020, 08:04 PM	#4
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,013	I don't know that we can say that it is the universal name in Jawa Jean, but it is certainly the name amongst the people whom I know in Solo --- down the road in Jogja it could well be different. Yes, the Bugis people could well have an entirely different name again.