Is it a katar dagger ?

Jens Nordlunde · 17th January 2020, 02:25 PM

Ariel - thank you for the invitation:-).

Ken, yes I think it could very well be a katar of a very old form. I dont know if you have read my article How Old is the Katar? If not, here it is.
https://www.academia.edu/31094926/How_Old_is_the_Katar
Originally the article was published in Arms & Armour. Vol. 10, no 1, 2013. Royal Armouries, Leeds.

A possible wooden grip, did not have to have been round, it could also have had other forms. See my catalogue pp. 182-183, or if you dont have it you can find some katars with only one cross bar on the MET homepage.

You do, now and again, see katars with only one cross bar, but it is not often, and they are usually quite old.
The missing protection, in this case the missing side guards, is strange, and I cant give you an answer to this, but in the south you sometimes see katars with very short side guards.

francantolin · 17th January 2020, 08:32 PM

Hello,

Thank you so much !
Especially Jens for your precious complete file about katars origin !
Really interesting !

No, there was no real back story,
the seller sold it as a really old knife, maybe european ...

I'll post more pictures when I'll receive it

Kind regards

Nihl · 17th January 2020, 11:01 PM

I personally would be wary of attributing much age to this piece. Assuming it is even supposed to be some kind of katar, there are fair number of "katars" of similar form - all of which are blatant fakes/crude reproductions - that are currently being sold online.

Attached is one such example.

mariusgmioc · 18th January 2020, 09:36 AM

Definitely not a katar as it would be impossible to use, thus useless.
This contraption simply cannot be held firmly in the hand.

fernando · 18th January 2020, 11:15 AM

That this is or not a katar, i wouldn't presume to have the luggage to judge on it but, i wouldn't easily reject that its sole bar doesn't allow for a firm grip, without pondering on its (missing) handle. Think of such being of a (wooden) square cross section ... or ovoid, like the naginata, for one

.

ariel · 18th January 2020, 02:02 PM

I also would not dismiss the idea of it being a fighting weapon simply on the basis of a “single bar” argument.
Jens was kind enough to provide a link to his paper. Go there and look at the pics. #205 has a single crossbar and no side bars at all.
Naturally, all old original examples of whatever mechanical creations had engineering imperfections and those were tweaked during subsequent development. Compare nomadic sabers with their barely effectual handguards with the later examples from a multitude of cultures. Pata has retained a single bar but introduced other solutions of the “infirm grip” problem. A similar problem of round Persian Shamshir grips was solved in Georgia by gradual widening of the grip toward the quillon block. Just making the bar flat instead of round would have improved the firmness of the grip.
As they say in Russian, the first blin ( thin pancake) always comes out as a lump:-)

Thus, IMHO, we may be seeing here not just old, but archaic Katar.

17th January 2020, 11:01 PM	#3
Nihl Member Join Date: Feb 2018 Posts: 90	I personally would be wary of attributing much age to this piece. Assuming it is even supposed to be some kind of katar, there are fair number of "katars" of similar form - all of which are blatant fakes/crude reproductions - that are currently being sold online. Attached is one such example. Attached Images

17th January 2020, 02:25 PM	#1
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Ariel - thank you for the invitation:-). Ken, yes I think it could very well be a katar of a very old form. I dont know if you have read my article How Old is the Katar? If not, here it is. https://www.academia.edu/31094926/How_Old_is_the_Katar Originally the article was published in Arms & Armour. Vol. 10, no 1, 2013. Royal Armouries, Leeds. A possible wooden grip, did not have to have been round, it could also have had other forms. See my catalogue pp. 182-183, or if you dont have it you can find some katars with only one cross bar on the MET homepage. You do, now and again, see katars with only one cross bar, but it is not often, and they are usually quite old. The missing protection, in this case the missing side guards, is strange, and I cant give you an answer to this, but in the south you sometimes see katars with very short side guards.

17th January 2020, 08:32 PM	#2
francantolin Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Posts: 905	Hello, Thank you so much ! Especially Jens for your precious complete file about katars origin ! Really interesting ! No, there was no real back story, the seller sold it as a really old knife, maybe european ... I'll post more pictures when I'll receive it Kind regards

18th January 2020, 09:36 AM	#4
mariusgmioc Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: Austria Posts: 1,906	Definitely not a katar as it would be impossible to use, thus useless. This contraption simply cannot be held firmly in the hand.

18th January 2020, 11:15 AM	#5
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	That this is or not a katar, i wouldn't presume to have the luggage to judge on it but, i wouldn't easily reject that its sole bar doesn't allow for a firm grip, without pondering on its (missing) handle. Think of such being of a (wooden) square cross section ... or ovoid, like the naginata, for one .

18th January 2020, 02:02 PM	#6
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	I also would not dismiss the idea of it being a fighting weapon simply on the basis of a “single bar” argument. Jens was kind enough to provide a link to his paper. Go there and look at the pics. #205 has a single crossbar and no side bars at all. Naturally, all old original examples of whatever mechanical creations had engineering imperfections and those were tweaked during subsequent development. Compare nomadic sabers with their barely effectual handguards with the later examples from a multitude of cultures. Pata has retained a single bar but introduced other solutions of the “infirm grip” problem. A similar problem of round Persian Shamshir grips was solved in Georgia by gradual widening of the grip toward the quillon block. Just making the bar flat instead of round would have improved the firmness of the grip. As they say in Russian, the first blin ( thin pancake) always comes out as a lump:-) Thus, IMHO, we may be seeing here not just old, but archaic Katar.