ANTIQUE 16th C OLD MADURA KERIS ??????

Tim Simmons · 6th May 2006, 09:52 PM

I think the blade is new as well. Some Keris people go in for etching old blades so exposing new metal, which I can understand in the original and active cultural context with ritual cleaning, but once you have an old piece that has crossed those boundaries I feel the monkey see monkey do attitude to the blade is nothing but damage. Duck and cover

.

Henk · 7th May 2006, 10:54 AM

I think the blade has some age. But it is always very difficult to tell the age of a keris blade, but i don't think this is a 16th century maduran blade. I think end 18th 19th century and javanese would come more in the direction. Although there are not more detailed pictures that shows us the dress, I think the scabbard and ukiran are newly made which is not very uncommon for a keris. In the moisty climate in Indonesia the wooden parts rot away under your hands, so redressing kerisblades was and is done frequently. Also for this keris it is done in a proper way. Scabbard and ukiran are javanese. The ukiran has a bird or parrot head on top. You also see javanese ukirans carved with snakes or snakeheads.

I think the buyer bought a very nice keris.

katana · 7th May 2006, 12:00 PM

Thanks for the reply Henk. In your opinion, was the price paid for the Keris a cheap price or was it around its market value?

Mark · 7th May 2006, 05:58 PM

The forum policy is to not discuss values/prices on the open boards. Sometimes a comment such as "what a steal!" or "way over-priced!" does slip by, but we prefer that more specific opinions on value not be posted.

However, I expect that your question can, and will, be answered via e-mail or PM. Anyone should feel free to do so.

Mark

Henk · 7th May 2006, 08:54 PM

I don't want to get suspended, so I won't answer this question in public.

Mark is completely right. Rule number one: discuss the weapons not the value.

Katana, I will sent you a PM.

katana · 7th May 2006, 09:52 PM

I apologise, I thought it was ok to talk in terms of a 'good' price, 'bad' price etc ...as long as monetary values were not used. I stand corrected

.

I am relatively new to collecting and, it is very difficult to know whether or not you are paying a reasonable amount for items you wish to add to your collection. This is why I asked about value, so I have some idea for future purchases.

doecon · 7th May 2006, 09:58 PM

Under a close up from the tip.

And here direct links to the other (original pictures)

http://67.59.155.243/images/doecon/k0600501.jpg
http://67.59.155.243/images/doecon/k0600502.jpg
http://67.59.155.243/images/doecon/k0600503.jpg
http://67.59.155.243/images/doecon/k0600504.jpg
http://67.59.155.243/images/doecon/k0600505.jpg
http://67.59.155.243/images/doecon/k0600506.jpg
http://67.59.155.243/images/doecon/k0600507.jpg

On picture 4,6,7 you can clearly see the pamor. Its hard to give a simple answer about establishing age, any indication about age is a guess. But then again, some guesses are more better then others.

Good guidelines are; color, wear around the edges, number of pamor layers, traces of grains in metal, the way the layers are bend etc etc. As soon as you think you know the period, compare it with reliable dated keris (maybe there is one in a museum near you

. In the exemple above you'll probably end up in the 16th century..but then again that my guess

Sheath, hilt ect.. are of course more recent. Its very hard to find even a 19th century keris with original sheath, handle, mendak etc (I have some, will share them later).

One reason is obvious (and mentioned above), its hard to keep a piece of 200 year old wood in good condition in the tropics.

The second reason is that keris blade are (locally) seen as valuable, but the rest is not (well not always). Most of the "new" owners simply want to change the "clothes" of their old blade. Put on a brand new sheath with shiny new brass cover is still seen as a good thing. You also dont wear the same clothes all the time, right ? The old ones sometimes is simply thrown away (trust me I see it happen a lot).

To Illustrate: I was on a market in Solo, few months ago. Found a nice old blade, in a good 19th century cover. Seller wanted to do me a favor and change the old cover with a brand new, for free even...He really had difficulty to understand why I wanted to keep the old one. In the end I left the market with an old blade in a flashy new sheath, meanwhile carying the old cover in a plastic with me of course

I can't comment on the "catch", and I dont see any reason I should

But I'm sure the new owner will be happy with his new collection addition.

nechesh · 7th May 2006, 11:07 PM

Hhhhmmm.....well, thanks for the pics Doecon. Unfortunately, they still aren't very good (blurry, dark) and i certainly wouldn't try to judge age from them. There does seem to be a certain amount of the type of pitting i would expect to see on artificially aged blades, but i wouldn't bet the farm that there is no real age to it. I do suspect that it is, indeed, a Madurese blade and therefore correctly, if poorly, dressed

I do find you comments on dress to be a bit off the mark. Dress is very highly regarded in Indonesian cultures and the really nice and reverred types of woods that are/were used in high quailty dress are becoming rarer and rare. Rare valuable materials are often used such as ivory which are held in very high esteem. The idea that a new owner would automatically trade out a fine quality dress for a shiny new one if that dress is in good condition just don't sound right to me at all. It would be disrespectful to the blade to leave it in damaged dress, but otherwise it would not just merely be tossed away for new.
Anyway, this is a fairly low quality blade (old or not) in a low quality dress. I would still say the new owner did alright if this is the type of keris he was looking to add to his collection. I do wonder, however, if it is advisible for you as the seller to appear on this forum to defend your description of this keris (and future auctions if they are discussed here). If there are factual discrepancies in your listings and you chose to defend them here i can assure you that the level of expertise on this forum here WILL find them and expose them. You may not find that in your best interest.

7th May 2006, 09:58 PM	#7
doecon Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 63	take a look Under a close up from the tip. And here direct links to the other (original pictures) http://67.59.155.243/images/doecon/k0600501.jpg http://67.59.155.243/images/doecon/k0600502.jpg http://67.59.155.243/images/doecon/k0600503.jpg http://67.59.155.243/images/doecon/k0600504.jpg http://67.59.155.243/images/doecon/k0600505.jpg http://67.59.155.243/images/doecon/k0600506.jpg http://67.59.155.243/images/doecon/k0600507.jpg On picture 4,6,7 you can clearly see the pamor. Its hard to give a simple answer about establishing age, any indication about age is a guess. But then again, some guesses are more better then others. Good guidelines are; color, wear around the edges, number of pamor layers, traces of grains in metal, the way the layers are bend etc etc. As soon as you think you know the period, compare it with reliable dated keris (maybe there is one in a museum near you. In the exemple above you'll probably end up in the 16th century..but then again that my guess Sheath, hilt ect.. are of course more recent. Its very hard to find even a 19th century keris with original sheath, handle, mendak etc (I have some, will share them later). One reason is obvious (and mentioned above), its hard to keep a piece of 200 year old wood in good condition in the tropics. The second reason is that keris blade are (locally) seen as valuable, but the rest is not (well not always). Most of the "new" owners simply want to change the "clothes" of their old blade. Put on a brand new sheath with shiny new brass cover is still seen as a good thing. You also dont wear the same clothes all the time, right ? The old ones sometimes is simply thrown away (trust me I see it happen a lot). To Illustrate: I was on a market in Solo, few months ago. Found a nice old blade, in a good 19th century cover. Seller wanted to do me a favor and change the old cover with a brand new, for free even...He really had difficulty to understand why I wanted to keep the old one. In the end I left the market with an old blade in a flashy new sheath, meanwhile carying the old cover in a plastic with me of course I can't comment on the "catch", and I dont see any reason I should But I'm sure the new owner will be happy with his new collection addition. Attached Images

6th May 2006, 09:52 PM	#1
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,855	I think the blade is new as well. Some Keris people go in for etching old blades so exposing new metal, which I can understand in the original and active cultural context with ritual cleaning, but once you have an old piece that has crossed those boundaries I feel the monkey see monkey do attitude to the blade is nothing but damage. Duck and cover .

7th May 2006, 10:54 AM	#2
Henk Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,209	I think the blade has some age. But it is always very difficult to tell the age of a keris blade, but i don't think this is a 16th century maduran blade. I think end 18th 19th century and javanese would come more in the direction. Although there are not more detailed pictures that shows us the dress, I think the scabbard and ukiran are newly made which is not very uncommon for a keris. In the moisty climate in Indonesia the wooden parts rot away under your hands, so redressing kerisblades was and is done frequently. Also for this keris it is done in a proper way. Scabbard and ukiran are javanese. The ukiran has a bird or parrot head on top. You also see javanese ukirans carved with snakes or snakeheads. I think the buyer bought a very nice keris.

7th May 2006, 12:00 PM	#3
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,658	Thanks for the reply Henk. In your opinion, was the price paid for the Keris a cheap price or was it around its market value?

7th May 2006, 05:58 PM	#4
Mark Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 987	The forum policy is to not discuss values/prices on the open boards. Sometimes a comment such as "what a steal!" or "way over-priced!" does slip by, but we prefer that more specific opinions on value not be posted. However, I expect that your question can, and will, be answered via e-mail or PM. Anyone should feel free to do so. Mark

7th May 2006, 08:54 PM	#5
Henk Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,209	I don't want to get suspended, so I won't answer this question in public. Mark is completely right. Rule number one: discuss the weapons not the value. Katana, I will sent you a PM.

7th May 2006, 09:52 PM	#6
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,658	I apologise, I thought it was ok to talk in terms of a 'good' price, 'bad' price etc ...as long as monetary values were not used. I stand corrected . I am relatively new to collecting and, it is very difficult to know whether or not you are paying a reasonable amount for items you wish to add to your collection. This is why I asked about value, so I have some idea for future purchases.

7th May 2006, 11:07 PM	#8
nechesh Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 940	Hhhhmmm.....well, thanks for the pics Doecon. Unfortunately, they still aren't very good (blurry, dark) and i certainly wouldn't try to judge age from them. There does seem to be a certain amount of the type of pitting i would expect to see on artificially aged blades, but i wouldn't bet the farm that there is no real age to it. I do suspect that it is, indeed, a Madurese blade and therefore correctly, if poorly, dressed I do find you comments on dress to be a bit off the mark. Dress is very highly regarded in Indonesian cultures and the really nice and reverred types of woods that are/were used in high quailty dress are becoming rarer and rare. Rare valuable materials are often used such as ivory which are held in very high esteem. The idea that a new owner would automatically trade out a fine quality dress for a shiny new one if that dress is in good condition just don't sound right to me at all. It would be disrespectful to the blade to leave it in damaged dress, but otherwise it would not just merely be tossed away for new. Anyway, this is a fairly low quality blade (old or not) in a low quality dress. I would still say the new owner did alright if this is the type of keris he was looking to add to his collection. I do wonder, however, if it is advisible for you as the seller to appear on this forum to defend your description of this keris (and future auctions if they are discussed here). If there are factual discrepancies in your listings and you chose to defend them here i can assure you that the level of expertise on this forum here WILL find them and expose them. You may not find that in your best interest.