Afghani pulwar: old and ( perhaps) revealing

mahratt · 29th December 2019, 02:22 PM

Salaams Ibrahiim

I think these miniatures confirm that the spherical top of the handle sword was not uncommon.

Illustrations from the Manuscript of Baburnama (Memoirs of Babur) - Late 16th Century
Bāburnāma is the memoirs of Ẓahīr ud-Dīn Muḥammad Bābur (1483-1530), founder of the Mughal Empire and a great-great-great-grandson of Timur. It is an autobiographical work, originally written in the Chagatai language, known to Babur as "Turki" (meaning Turkic), the spoken language of the Andijan-Timurids. Because of Babur's cultural origin, his prose is highly Persianized in its sentence structure, morphology, and vocabulary,and also contains many phrases and smaller poems in Persian. During Emperor Akbar's reign, the work was completely translated to Persian by a Mughal courtier, Abdul Rahīm, in AH (Hijri) 998 (1589-90).

These Painting, being a fragment of a dispersed copy, was executed most probably in the late 16th CE century.

ariel · 29th December 2019, 04:39 PM

Thanks. Very helpful.
When the picture is enlarged to 400-500%, one can see clearly that the pommels marked in red are not solid spherical, but flat on top ( hemispherical), hollow inside, have no lids and in some of them balusters protrude above the boundaries of the pommel. Also, their quillons are fleuret-like and not down-turned, strengthening Jens' statement of their earlier origin.
They look very much like my original example, only less Persianized ( quillon tips) suggesting that mine may be 16-17th century.
Again, thanks for confirming my suspicions.

mahratt · 29th December 2019, 05:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

Thanks. Very helpful.
When the picture is enlarged to 400-500%, one can see clearly that the pommels marked in red are not solid spherical, but flat on top ( hemispherical), hollow inside, have no lids and in some of them balusters protrude above the boundaries of the pommel. Also, their quillons are fleuret-like and not down-turned, strengthening Jens' statement of their earlier origin.

You probably did not enlarge the miniature that I showed.
Although there are also hemispherical pommel on the miniature (I highlighted with a white arrow). The ratio of spherical pommels and hemispherical pommels is about the same, so it is difficult to say which shape of the top was more archaic.

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Memoirs_of_Babur_(Walters_MS_596)#/media/File:Zahir_al-Din_Muhammad_Babur_-_The_Battle_of_Sultan_Husayn_Mirza_Against_Sultan_ Mas'ud_Mirza_-_Walters_W59618B_-_Full_Page.jpg

ariel · 29th December 2019, 07:19 PM

You just did not zoom them enough. Look at their tops: they are flat.
Hemispherical as they can be , all showing darkened innards with protruding balusters, all just like the one with a white arrow.
Again, thanks for providing incontrovertible iconographic evidence in my favor.

mahratt · 29th December 2019, 08:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

You just did not zoom them enough.

If you enlarge the images even further, since the clarity of the image will be lost, you can expect any form of pommels.
I think everyone could see the form conceived by the author of the miniatures.

ariel · 29th December 2019, 08:43 PM

Having politely thanked Mahratt for his valuable evidence in favor of my original post, I hereby stop responding to his comments.
Any other critiques/suggestions/interpretations are more than welcome.

Happy New Year!

mahratt · 29th December 2019, 09:08 PM

Salaams Ibrahiim

Maybe my eyesight is failing ... Look, please, are you leading a spherical pommel this sword here? Or a hemisphere?

29th December 2019, 07:19 PM	#4
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	You just did not zoom them enough. Look at their tops: they are flat. Hemispherical as they can be , all showing darkened innards with protruding balusters, all just like the one with a white arrow. Again, thanks for providing incontrovertible iconographic evidence in my favor. Attached Images Last edited by ariel; 29th December 2019 at 07:30 PM.

29th December 2019, 09:08 PM	#7
mahratt Member Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Russia Posts: 1,042	Salaams Ibrahiim Maybe my eyesight is failing ... Look, please, are you leading a spherical pommel this sword here? Or a hemisphere? Attached Images

29th December 2019, 04:39 PM	#2
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Thanks. Very helpful. When the picture is enlarged to 400-500%, one can see clearly that the pommels marked in red are not solid spherical, but flat on top ( hemispherical), hollow inside, have no lids and in some of them balusters protrude above the boundaries of the pommel. Also, their quillons are fleuret-like and not down-turned, strengthening Jens' statement of their earlier origin. They look very much like my original example, only less Persianized ( quillon tips) suggesting that mine may be 16-17th century. Again, thanks for confirming my suspicions.

29th December 2019, 08:43 PM	#6
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Having politely thanked Mahratt for his valuable evidence in favor of my original post, I hereby stop responding to his comments. Any other critiques/suggestions/interpretations are more than welcome. Happy New Year!