Afghani pulwar: old and ( perhaps) revealing

[ariel]

Ibrahiim,
We have already went thru a fanciful theory of the meaning and importance of “ phul” ( see topic “On the Use of Indian Terms for Identification of Weapon Types”).
We can also consider the possibility that perhaps the very word “pulwar” is a phonetically -mistaken variant of “ Tulwar” that entered European books either through a leaden ear of a European traveler, or through a pitch-perfect ear of the same traveler listening to a toothless Afghani. Indeed, the locals only shrug their shoulders in incomprehension when being asked about “ pulwar”: they call this saber “ shamshir”. The calamity of a straight-bladed peshkabz allegedly called “ Karud” is an example how phonetic tricks can find their way into European books and usage:-)

The connection between poppyseed boxes and hemispheric Afghani pommels seems unlikely, IMHO: those boxes are fully spherical ( as in your example). Had your suggestion been the case, we would have seen predominance of spherical form, but in reality they are almost as rare as hen’s teeth. Local and rare variants of spherical pommels stemming from hemispherical ones can be seen in other cultures: Sumatran Piso Podang’s open hemispherical cup became solid spherical one on Borneo Iban analogs.

Any hypothesis may be original and beautiful, but it does not make is plausible.

[Jens Nordlunde]

The answer to how the Piso Podang hilt got spread to other countries may be found in Suvarnadvipa. Hindu Colonies of the Far East. By Dr. R.C.Majumdar. Cosmo Publications, India, 2004. Vol. I-II.
It starts in the 8th century and goes on till it all broke down centuries later. This Indian influence is likely still to be seen in some of the countries, and most cetrainly on some of the hilts.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by ariel

Ibrahiim,
We have already went thru a fanciful theory of the meaning and importance of “ phul” ( see topic “On the Use of Indian Terms for Identification of Weapon Types”).
We can also consider the possibility that perhaps the very word “pulwar” is a phonetically -mistaken variant of “ Tulwar” that entered European books either through a leaden ear of a European traveler, or through a pitch-perfect ear of the same traveler listening to a toothless Afghani. Indeed, the locals only shrug their shoulders in incomprehension when being asked about “ pulwar”: they call this saber “ shamshir”. The calamity of a straight-bladed peshkabz allegedly called “ Karud” is an example how phonetic tricks can find their way into European books and usage:-)

The connection between poppyseed boxes and hemispheric Afghani pommels seems unlikely, IMHO: those boxes are fully spherical ( as in your example). Had your suggestion been the case, we would have seen predominance of spherical form, but in reality they are almost as rare as hen’s teeth. Local and rare variants of spherical pommels stemming from hemispherical ones can be seen in other cultures: Sumatran Piso Podang’s open hemispherical cup became solid spherical one on Borneo Iban analogs.

Any hypothesis may be original and beautiful, but it does not make is plausible.

Salaams Ariel,

Any hypothesis may be original and beautiful, but it does not make is plausible.

I agree but then neither does it make it implausible. Local folk often shrug their shoulders when they don't know something....it is hardly proof.
NOW whereas I realize the difficulty note that I have shown a ''whats in a word '' derivative that is very plausible...TULVAR. PULOUAR. Add the Hindu word Phula meaning flower and you will agree that the poppy seed arrangement looks very similar to the pommel in the Turban/Ball form.

If I can focus on the hilt for a moment on Tulvar Pulouar and the word for flower Phul. Its not a word describing the Hilt but only the Pommel.

I ADD that in the case of Turban/Ball form and Tulvar Pulouar that seeds or pebbles were put in both possibly to alert the owner that someone was stealing their sword? My thought on the almost identical Turban/Ball form is that this possibly came earlier but did not defend the sword hand so well as the broader half ball or Tulvar Pulouar style... so it fell from use...

Regarding the variation and mistakes bouncing around other regional weapons; they may occasionally be similar in generating errors but hardly any are the same thus there are no hard and fast rules and none that I can judge of being the fault of the language they are printed in; while they may be part of the mystique, myth and legend of ancient tribal weaponry we call Ethnographic.

[ariel]

There is a small twist of purely English spelling:-)

Correct spelling and pronounciation of the word Tulwar is Talwar:From Hindi तलवार (talwār). Pronunciation (UK) IPA: / ˈtʌlwɑː/; (US) IPA: /ˈtʌlwɑɹ/.

Spelling Tulwar is a purely English phenomenon : sometimes -u is pronounced as -a; see “dust”, “rust”, “lust” , “ugly”, “umbrella” etc. It largely depends on the initial linguistic origin, but sometimes it is messy and defies logic: see study and student. British colonizers heard the word as tAlwar, but spelled it differently, each to his own liking.

Some of us in writing still spell it as “ Tulwar”, some as “Talwar”, but no matter what pronounce it as tAlwa(r).

Thus, one cannot derive word Phul from it. Moreover, the word “phul”, flower, is pronounced as “Ful”, not “Pul”, and “ pAlwar” has nothing to do with “flower”.

Apparently, there is a Hindi word “pAlwar” ( also spelled with “-u”), but it has nothing to do with swords:
pul·​war | \ (ˌ)pəlˈwär \
plural -s
Definition of pulwar
: a light keelless riverboat used in India.

The bottom line: there are no flowers in pulwars:-)

G.B. Shaw made fun of English spelling, saying that word “ fish” should be spelled as “ghoti”: gh pronounced “f” as in laugh, o as “i” as in women, and ti as “sh” as in nation.

[mahratt]

Salaams Ibrahiim

I think these miniatures confirm that the spherical top of the handle sword was not uncommon.

Illustrations from the Manuscript of Baburnama (Memoirs of Babur) - Late 16th Century
Bāburnāma is the memoirs of Ẓahīr ud-Dīn Muḥammad Bābur (1483-1530), founder of the Mughal Empire and a great-great-great-grandson of Timur. It is an autobiographical work, originally written in the Chagatai language, known to Babur as "Turki" (meaning Turkic), the spoken language of the Andijan-Timurids. Because of Babur's cultural origin, his prose is highly Persianized in its sentence structure, morphology, and vocabulary,and also contains many phrases and smaller poems in Persian. During Emperor Akbar's reign, the work was completely translated to Persian by a Mughal courtier, Abdul Rahīm, in AH (Hijri) 998 (1589-90).

These Painting, being a fragment of a dispersed copy, was executed most probably in the late 16th CE century.

[ariel]

Thanks. Very helpful.
When the picture is enlarged to 400-500%, one can see clearly that the pommels marked in red are not solid spherical, but flat on top ( hemispherical), hollow inside, have no lids and in some of them balusters protrude above the boundaries of the pommel. Also, their quillons are fleuret-like and not down-turned, strengthening Jens' statement of their earlier origin.
They look very much like my original example, only less Persianized ( quillon tips) suggesting that mine may be 16-17th century.
Again, thanks for confirming my suspicions.

[mahratt]

Originally Posted by ariel

Thanks. Very helpful.
When the picture is enlarged to 400-500%, one can see clearly that the pommels marked in red are not solid spherical, but flat on top ( hemispherical), hollow inside, have no lids and in some of them balusters protrude above the boundaries of the pommel. Also, their quillons are fleuret-like and not down-turned, strengthening Jens' statement of their earlier origin.

You probably did not enlarge the miniature that I showed.
Although there are also hemispherical pommel on the miniature (I highlighted with a white arrow). The ratio of spherical pommels and hemispherical pommels is about the same, so it is difficult to say which shape of the top was more archaic.

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Memoirs_of_Babur_(Walters_MS_596)#/media/File:Zahir_al-Din_Muhammad_Babur_-_The_Battle_of_Sultan_Husayn_Mirza_Against_Sultan_ Mas'ud_Mirza_-_Walters_W59618B_-_Full_Page.jpg

[ariel]

You just did not zoom them enough. Look at their tops: they are flat.
Hemispherical as they can be , all showing darkened innards with protruding balusters, all just like the one with a white arrow.
Again, thanks for providing incontrovertible iconographic evidence in my favor.

[mahratt]

Originally Posted by ariel

You just did not zoom them enough.

If you enlarge the images even further, since the clarity of the image will be lost, you can expect any form of pommels.
I think everyone could see the form conceived by the author of the miniatures.