IFICAH funding sale at Czerny's

David · 18th December 2019, 04:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jean

These hilts on resin are very fragile, I had one broken during transport but fortunately it was nicely repaired by an Indian jeweller.
Regards

Well, hopefully the new owner of this one knows an equally talented Indian jeweler.

Jean · 18th December 2019, 06:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

Well, hopefully the new owner of this one knows an equally talented Indian jeweler.

I hope that he is just a rich benefactor for IFICAH.

Czerny's are usually quite careful/ conservative about their descriptions, although they often make mistakes about the origin of the pieces and the materials (ivory vs bone/ antler especially).
Regards

mariusgmioc · 18th December 2019, 07:47 PM

Imagine bidding, winning and paying 30000 Euro for a keris covered in solid gold, then find out is only gold plated...

A. G. Maisey · 18th December 2019, 09:56 PM

It does happen Marius.

What also happens is suasa (rose gold) being described as copper.

Auction houses often get things wrong, and I believe that they pretty much cover their inadequacies with what they put into the fine print of their catalogues.

I simply do not believe the descriptions that auction houses present.

This means that I would need to try to work out what I wanted to bid on from the photos, and frankly, I am not able to do that.

So I do not bid --- unless I can handle what I want to bid on.

Anthony G. · 19th December 2019, 05:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mariusgmioc

Imagine bidding, winning and paying 30000 Euro for a keris covered in solid gold, then find out is only gold plated...

David · 19th December 2019, 03:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mariusgmioc

Imagine bidding, winning and paying 30000 Euro for a keris covered in solid gold, then find out is only gold plated...

To be clear Marius, the bidders final cost were more likely just a bit over $30,000 USD, not euros. I generally don't like spending too much time talking about money on this forum. I think people were all just scratching their heads a bit at first because the catalog description of this keris was very cautious, calling the materials only "yellow metal" that had been gilded. But if you noted my post #8, Czerny Auctions made a last minute announce on this keris claiming that the metal had tested as gold. I must say that at this point it seems unlikely that the dress is only gilded at this point. There would be legal ramifications for such a deception and they are a long standing and respected auction house.
What i would rather steer this conversation towards is the Auction House's claim that this is an "Important" keris. They stress this word "important" in the catalog description as well as their last minute social media update about gold content.
Given that is is a replica made at a date far removed from when keris in this original gold dress had some legitimate cultural meaning do members here also see this keris as being "important" in the world of keris and/or keris collecting? If so, why? Who would such elaborate replica dress have been made for at the start of the 20th century, especially assuming it is in fact solid gold? What function would it have served?

Jean · 20th December 2019, 09:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

But if you noted my post #8, Czerny Auctions made a last minute announce on this keris claiming that the metal had tested as gold. I must say that at this point it seems unlikely that the dress is only gilded at this point. There would be legal ramifications for such a deception and they are a long standing and respected auction house.

This last minute announcement that the metal of the scabbard and hilt was tested as solid gold does not look professional in my view. For instance I was not informed about it although I placed many bids in this auction (but not for this piece of course

). Czerny's should have corrected or removed the ad.
Just for reference, one collector whom I know claimed against Czerny's because the description of the received item was not as described and Czerny's replied: "OK, we will give you a (small) discount on the price of your next purchase". Of course the prejudice was much smaller than potenrtially in this case....
Regards

A. G. Maisey · 20th December 2019, 07:06 PM

Jean, to my mind this is the key question:-

What steps do you take to make an informed bid when considering an article at auction if you do not have a reasonable opportunity to inspect the goods?

In a situation where the seller does not have an obligation to disclose the quality of goods sold at auction, then how is it possible to make an informed bid?

In respect of goods sold at auction, I do not know the law in any country other than Australia. In Australia the fine print of auction catalogues are hedged with so many caveats and qualifications that even in a case where an auctioneer misrepresents what is being sold, any court action is likely to fail, and for items of small value, would in any case be a waste of time and of throwing good money after bad.

What is small value? I would guess that in this sort of situation the concept of "small value" might be something in the order of under $100,000.

I would assume, perhaps incorrectly, but logic tells me that this would not be an incorrect assumption, other countries across the globe have similar laws governing sale by auction as does Australia.

If we buy at auction in the absence of personal inspection of the goods to be sold, we are gambling. It is that simple.

I believe I would have a better chance of coming out on top by backing racehorses than by buying at auction in a situation where I could not personally inspect what I intended to bid on.

David · 20th December 2019, 11:45 PM

Admittedly i don't really know how the law would operate under this specific scenario either, but i would like to think that if an auction house presents an item like this in a cautious manner (i.e. this item is made of some "yellow metal" that has been fire gilded) but last minute puts out a public notice that they just discovered the item in question is really hallmarked gold, thereby raising the perceived value of that item in time to affect bidding, but that once the item is received the winning bid discovers that said item is, in fact, not solid gold, that a court would consider that a case of fraud. But again, that would be my hope. I have no idea how the law works.

18th December 2019, 07:47 PM	#3
mariusgmioc Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: Austria Posts: 1,906	Imagine bidding, winning and paying 30000 Euro for a keris covered in solid gold, then find out is only gold plated...

18th December 2019, 09:56 PM	#4
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,989	It does happen Marius. What also happens is suasa (rose gold) being described as copper. Auction houses often get things wrong, and I believe that they pretty much cover their inadequacies with what they put into the fine print of their catalogues. I simply do not believe the descriptions that auction houses present. This means that I would need to try to work out what I wanted to bid on from the photos, and frankly, I am not able to do that. So I do not bid --- unless I can handle what I want to bid on.

20th December 2019, 07:06 PM	#8
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,989	Jean, to my mind this is the key question:- What steps do you take to make an informed bid when considering an article at auction if you do not have a reasonable opportunity to inspect the goods? In a situation where the seller does not have an obligation to disclose the quality of goods sold at auction, then how is it possible to make an informed bid? In respect of goods sold at auction, I do not know the law in any country other than Australia. In Australia the fine print of auction catalogues are hedged with so many caveats and qualifications that even in a case where an auctioneer misrepresents what is being sold, any court action is likely to fail, and for items of small value, would in any case be a waste of time and of throwing good money after bad. What is small value? I would guess that in this sort of situation the concept of "small value" might be something in the order of under $100,000. I would assume, perhaps incorrectly, but logic tells me that this would not be an incorrect assumption, other countries across the globe have similar laws governing sale by auction as does Australia. If we buy at auction in the absence of personal inspection of the goods to be sold, we are gambling. It is that simple. I believe I would have a better chance of coming out on top by backing racehorses than by buying at auction in a situation where I could not personally inspect what I intended to bid on.

20th December 2019, 11:45 PM	#9
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,211	Admittedly i don't really know how the law would operate under this specific scenario either, but i would like to think that if an auction house presents an item like this in a cautious manner (i.e. this item is made of some "yellow metal" that has been fire gilded) but last minute puts out a public notice that they just discovered the item in question is really hallmarked gold, thereby raising the perceived value of that item in time to affect bidding, but that once the item is received the winning bid discovers that said item is, in fact, not solid gold, that a court would consider that a case of fraud. But again, that would be my hope. I have no idea how the law works.