Weapons for animals

Jim McDougall · 1st December 2019, 08:20 PM

Julien, this is I agree, a most interesting slant on the study of arms, but it is I'm afraid a bit of a strain in the scope of discussions here, as seen in the somewhat bizarre entries entertained in the elephant sword thread (my bat entry not withstanding

).

Actually the subject is best described as either animals used AS weapons or weapons added TO animals in warfare. Animals are of course usually afforded their own natural weapons, and use these instinctively. Therefore they do not need weapons as used by humans, nor would they be trained in the use of them.

It is ironic however, that early humans learned about weapons from those of the animals around them, and fashioned their own representations of these natural animal weapons, such as tusks, horns, fangs and claws to use in imitation of them.

Early weapons were often comprised of the actual animal parts, or fashioned in imitation of them. Eventually of course, these were fashioned of steel.

Examples of the madu in India, as well as the bichwa, curved blades of the various daggers, and bagh nakh (claws) are of course in mind.

Animals trained in combat such as the war horse were THE weapon, and they kick to unhorse riders, and bite against an enemy. The elephants were less reliable in maintaining the direction of their aggression as far as targets.

Good point by Ren Ren, as passive weapons, much like armor, were for defense. The spiked collar around the neck of dogs is so that they cannot be grabbed around the neck negating their biting ability, but as described on the hunting dogs as well with threat of the prey attacking.

I find only dismay in the description of blades on claws in cock fighting and in these kinds of cruel 'sport' using animals.

corrado26 · 2nd December 2019, 07:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

I find only dismay in the description of blades on claws in cock fighting and in these kinds of cruel 'sport' using animals.

We should stop discussing such themes, they are absolutely stupid, inhuman and unworthy
corrado26

kronckew · 2nd December 2019, 08:03 AM

Yes, the occasional mention in passing in discussing a specific martial arm is one thing. Discussing this subject especially their illegal cruel sport aspects on it's own is not appropriate.

fernando · 2nd December 2019, 08:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kronckew

Yes, the occasional mention in passing in discussing a specific martial arm is one thing. Discussing this subject especially their illegal cruel sport aspects on it's own is not appropriate.

Absolutely. Do i see this thread has just ended ...

Ren Ren · 2nd December 2019, 10:52 AM

It is wonderful that the modern inhabitants of the planet Earth are striving for the pure, bright and humane. But "civilization is when they kill as before, but no longer cut off the ears of corpses!"

JBG163 · 2nd December 2019, 11:16 AM

I saw in thoses artifacts, ancient weapons, ancient tradition and ancient culture. Maybe it was pretty dirty things. But, the Swords you collect maybe killed innocent women, men and child, maybe, it was used to rob someone or murder. Think about Nepalese Kora or Indian Sword, used to sacrifying animals...
Everything isn't bright in a society, in a different cultural way. But, the weapon itself, the construction, the way it's made and use is interessant.
By the way, i don't thing this thread need to end. Maybe move up to miscellaneous. Thanks for response about european way to Armor dogs, i wasn't aware of this. And if anybody got informations, i Hope we Can continu to talk about this, without anger.
Have a good day everybody.
Julien

fernando · 2nd December 2019, 08:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JBG163

... By the way, i don't thing this thread need to end. Maybe move up to miscellaneous...

Let us start by following your suggestion, Julien.Thread moved.

Jim McDougall · 2nd December 2019, 03:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kronckew

Yes, the occasional mention in passing in discussing a specific martial arm is one thing. Discussing this subject especially their illegal cruel sport aspects on it's own is not appropriate.

I agree with Wayne, an occasion digression to unusual use of a specific weapon or type where it brings animals in, such as the exemplars of armor, or the elephant swords is tolerable as long as reasonable candor is kept.

But these aspects of misuse and cruel exploitation of animals is both distasteful and disturbing. While obviously weapons are intended for combative use, as a rule, they are typically used against other weapons in a reasonably skilled exchange, and purposed primarily defensively.

I think Julien's intent here was well meaning, but I am afraid the theme has exposed an unpleasant course. Let's take the high road guys

and let this one go.

ariel · 2nd December 2019, 06:17 PM

The Third Battle of Panipat ended in a resounding defeat of the Marathi army. More than 40,000 fully armed soldiers died on the battlefield. But 40,000 -70,000 of mostly non-combatants were taken prisoner, disarmed and slaughtered in cold blood the very next day. In a forest near the village of Katyn, Russian NKVD in 1939 slaughtered 10,000 Polish officers,- who surrendered to Russians, escaping German onslaught. Not much different from the Afghani solution to the Marathi "problem" in 1761, only almost 200 years later.
From the beautiful heights of Geneva Convention we imagine wars as brutal but " honest" confrontations, something along the lines of Ivanhoe in his shining armor.
In reality, wars were always dirty, pitiless and bloody business, with no quarter given, with mass slaughter of men, women, children, sheep and oxen.
I love animals just like any of you. But let's recall, that literally several days ago we have calmly discussed Russian dogs with suicide belts, trained to crawl under German tanks and explode there.

fernando · 2nd December 2019, 09:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

... I love animals just like any of you...

Sure thing Ariel, but; maybe we don't all love with the same intensity ... just saying

.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

... But let's recall, that literally several days ago we have calmly discussed Russian dogs with suicide belts, trained to crawl under German tanks and explode there...

Well, not we, Ariel ... not we; on the contrary ... sure you didn't miss it.

fernando · 2nd December 2019, 09:26 PM

Let us go back to the business our forum is about.
Merry Christmas everyone

.

1st December 2019, 08:20 PM	#1
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,281	Julien, this is I agree, a most interesting slant on the study of arms, but it is I'm afraid a bit of a strain in the scope of discussions here, as seen in the somewhat bizarre entries entertained in the elephant sword thread (my bat entry not withstanding ). Actually the subject is best described as either animals used AS weapons or weapons added TO animals in warfare. Animals are of course usually afforded their own natural weapons, and use these instinctively. Therefore they do not need weapons as used by humans, nor would they be trained in the use of them. It is ironic however, that early humans learned about weapons from those of the animals around them, and fashioned their own representations of these natural animal weapons, such as tusks, horns, fangs and claws to use in imitation of them. Early weapons were often comprised of the actual animal parts, or fashioned in imitation of them. Eventually of course, these were fashioned of steel. Examples of the madu in India, as well as the bichwa, curved blades of the various daggers, and bagh nakh (claws) are of course in mind. Animals trained in combat such as the war horse were THE weapon, and they kick to unhorse riders, and bite against an enemy. The elephants were less reliable in maintaining the direction of their aggression as far as targets. Good point by Ren Ren, as passive weapons, much like armor, were for defense. The spiked collar around the neck of dogs is so that they cannot be grabbed around the neck negating their biting ability, but as described on the hunting dogs as well with threat of the prey attacking. I find only dismay in the description of blades on claws in cock fighting and in these kinds of cruel 'sport' using animals.

2nd December 2019, 08:03 AM	#3
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,224	Yes, the occasional mention in passing in discussing a specific martial arm is one thing. Discussing this subject especially their illegal cruel sport aspects on it's own is not appropriate.

2nd December 2019, 10:52 AM	#5
Ren Ren Member Join Date: Jun 2011 Location: Russia, Moscow Posts: 379	It is wonderful that the modern inhabitants of the planet Earth are striving for the pure, bright and humane. But "civilization is when they kill as before, but no longer cut off the ears of corpses!"

2nd December 2019, 11:16 AM	#6
JBG163 Member Join Date: Sep 2019 Location: France Posts: 209	I saw in thoses artifacts, ancient weapons, ancient tradition and ancient culture. Maybe it was pretty dirty things. But, the Swords you collect maybe killed innocent women, men and child, maybe, it was used to rob someone or murder. Think about Nepalese Kora or Indian Sword, used to sacrifying animals... Everything isn't bright in a society, in a different cultural way. But, the weapon itself, the construction, the way it's made and use is interessant. By the way, i don't thing this thread need to end. Maybe move up to miscellaneous. Thanks for response about european way to Armor dogs, i wasn't aware of this. And if anybody got informations, i Hope we Can continu to talk about this, without anger. Have a good day everybody. Julien

2nd December 2019, 06:17 PM	#9
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	The Third Battle of Panipat ended in a resounding defeat of the Marathi army. More than 40,000 fully armed soldiers died on the battlefield. But 40,000 -70,000 of mostly non-combatants were taken prisoner, disarmed and slaughtered in cold blood the very next day. In a forest near the village of Katyn, Russian NKVD in 1939 slaughtered 10,000 Polish officers,- who surrendered to Russians, escaping German onslaught. Not much different from the Afghani solution to the Marathi "problem" in 1761, only almost 200 years later. From the beautiful heights of Geneva Convention we imagine wars as brutal but " honest" confrontations, something along the lines of Ivanhoe in his shining armor. In reality, wars were always dirty, pitiless and bloody business, with no quarter given, with mass slaughter of men, women, children, sheep and oxen. I love animals just like any of you. But let's recall, that literally several days ago we have calmly discussed Russian dogs with suicide belts, trained to crawl under German tanks and explode there.

2nd December 2019, 09:26 PM	#11
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Let us go back to the business our forum is about. Merry Christmas everyone .