Mudra and asana in/on keris hilts.

A. G. Maisey · 27th November 2019, 07:54 PM

Thank you.

A. G. Maisey · 27th November 2019, 08:05 PM

Jean, I've said that I have not yet begun to think about aksanas, but in trying to understand mudras, it is difficult not to encounter some comment on aksanas.

The major thing that I have come across so far with aksanas is that an aksana is not a figural position, but rather it is supposedly a comfortable way in which to sit that permits full mind focus during meditation.

This next comment is just a feeling at the moment, so don't pin me to it:- I feel that in probably most cases, the figural and hand positions that we see in all except the very oldest of hilts are not truly representative of mudras, nor aksanas but are simply artistic convention, probably generated in the distant past by attempts at true representation, but later, becoming corrupt.

David · 28th November 2019, 10:33 PM

Can i have some clarification gentlemen. Both Alan and Jean have mentioned "aksanas". I have assumed we are talking about yoga positions? But AFAIK the word is "asana", not "aksana". Is this a proper alternative spelling or a mistake?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asana

A. G. Maisey · 28th November 2019, 11:58 PM

Asana would be correct I think, I was probably the first to give it an incorrect spelling. I was and am looking at some Buddhist ideas about unfortunate paths in life, there is a concept called "akshana/aksana", and I made a typo, Jean probably read my incorrect spelling, and not realising that I am human too --- in spite of what some detractors might think --- he followed suit, and of course I followed my earlier lead, I don't think I got it right after my first error.

Sorry.

Jean · 29th November 2019, 08:49 AM

Yeah, I questioned "aksana" too and added a question mark after "figure position" in my post #12 but I tought that it was a Javanese variation of "asana"

Both words apparently do not exist in bahasa Indonesia.
Regards

A. G. Maisey · 29th November 2019, 11:39 AM

No Jean, as I said, a typo, caused by my mind being somewhere else. I have not yet even begun to think about aksanas --- ooops, sorry, I mean Asanas.

I do not know either word in Javanese, but upon checking I find that asana is found in Old Javanese, and with a variety of meanings. It is also found in Modern Javanese, but I needed to go to the Javanese equivalent of the Oxford on Historical Principles to find it, so it is a reasonably obscure word in Javanese. Asana does not appear to be found in Balinese. I would not expect it in Bahasa Indonesia, which is based in the language of trade.

In Javanese, when associated with sitting, it actually means a place to sit, not a posture, and if we go back to Sanscrit --- asana is from Sanscrit --- we find that the original principal meaning in Sanscrit is a seat, specifically a comfortable seat that will allow a person to sit unmoving for a long time in order to concentrate upon meditation.

The modern interpretations of the word asana seem to refer to postures, and this overlaps into yoga --- ie, "yoga" as a set of physical exercises , not in its original sense of a system of philosophy.

I've only found any of this in the last ten minutes, but I believe it is obvious from only this tiny sample of data that there is one hell of a lot assumption and misunderstanding floating around when we start to scratch the surface of not just asanas, but also of mudras.

This little exercise has highlighted something that has been one of my oft repeated warnings:- the structure of a word, and the meaning and application of a word can, and does often, change over time. Thus if we are to try to understand the original, more or less accurate meaning of something, we need to go back to the time and place where that word --- or object, or practice, or whatever --- was actually used in the context that we are trying to understand. Frequently it is close to a complete waste of time to try to understand the past in terms of the present.

Earlier today somebody sent me a paper that dealt with the translation from Old Javanese of a couple of well known kakawins --- the Sutasoma, and the Nagara Kertagama. The striking thing was that several very respected scholars had translated passages in very different ways, in other words, these experts had understood the original texts to say different things, not widely different, but different, and sometimes in the context of the story being related, illogical.

So, to get back to the matter of asanas. Is that word "asana" really the correct word to use when we talk about the observed posture of sculpted figure? In the context that concerns us, we are talking about Jawa at a time when the language used was Old Javanese, and we are talking about Bali. In modern times, the word "asana" seems to have come into English, and I believe that any native English speaker who knows the word would understand it in its English language sense.

Maybe, just maybe, we are trying to understand these poses in art from the wrong direction. Maybe these poses that we see in keris hilts, and in other sculptures are to be interpreted in a way that is not really related to the spiritual, but possibly to dance, where certain postures are a part of the vocabulary of performance art.

Anyway, as I have already said, I know nothing about all this stuff yet, and I have not got enough data to even begin to think about it. But given time it might become a little bit more clear than it is now.

27th November 2019, 07:54 PM	#1
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,991	Thank you.

27th November 2019, 08:05 PM	#2
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,991	Jean, I've said that I have not yet begun to think about aksanas, but in trying to understand mudras, it is difficult not to encounter some comment on aksanas. The major thing that I have come across so far with aksanas is that an aksana is not a figural position, but rather it is supposedly a comfortable way in which to sit that permits full mind focus during meditation. This next comment is just a feeling at the moment, so don't pin me to it:- I feel that in probably most cases, the figural and hand positions that we see in all except the very oldest of hilts are not truly representative of mudras, nor aksanas but are simply artistic convention, probably generated in the distant past by attempts at true representation, but later, becoming corrupt.

28th November 2019, 10:33 PM	#3
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,211	Can i have some clarification gentlemen. Both Alan and Jean have mentioned "aksanas". I have assumed we are talking about yoga positions? But AFAIK the word is "asana", not "aksana". Is this a proper alternative spelling or a mistake? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asana

28th November 2019, 11:58 PM	#4
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,991	Asana would be correct I think, I was probably the first to give it an incorrect spelling. I was and am looking at some Buddhist ideas about unfortunate paths in life, there is a concept called "akshana/aksana", and I made a typo, Jean probably read my incorrect spelling, and not realising that I am human too --- in spite of what some detractors might think --- he followed suit, and of course I followed my earlier lead, I don't think I got it right after my first error. Sorry.

29th November 2019, 08:49 AM	#5
Jean Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,740	Yeah, I questioned "aksana" too and added a question mark after "figure position" in my post #12 but I tought that it was a Javanese variation of "asana" Both words apparently do not exist in bahasa Indonesia. Regards

29th November 2019, 11:39 AM	#6
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,991	No Jean, as I said, a typo, caused by my mind being somewhere else. I have not yet even begun to think about aksanas --- ooops, sorry, I mean Asanas. I do not know either word in Javanese, but upon checking I find that asana is found in Old Javanese, and with a variety of meanings. It is also found in Modern Javanese, but I needed to go to the Javanese equivalent of the Oxford on Historical Principles to find it, so it is a reasonably obscure word in Javanese. Asana does not appear to be found in Balinese. I would not expect it in Bahasa Indonesia, which is based in the language of trade. In Javanese, when associated with sitting, it actually means a place to sit, not a posture, and if we go back to Sanscrit --- asana is from Sanscrit --- we find that the original principal meaning in Sanscrit is a seat, specifically a comfortable seat that will allow a person to sit unmoving for a long time in order to concentrate upon meditation. The modern interpretations of the word asana seem to refer to postures, and this overlaps into yoga --- ie, "yoga" as a set of physical exercises , not in its original sense of a system of philosophy. I've only found any of this in the last ten minutes, but I believe it is obvious from only this tiny sample of data that there is one hell of a lot assumption and misunderstanding floating around when we start to scratch the surface of not just asanas, but also of mudras. This little exercise has highlighted something that has been one of my oft repeated warnings:- the structure of a word, and the meaning and application of a word can, and does often, change over time. Thus if we are to try to understand the original, more or less accurate meaning of something, we need to go back to the time and place where that word --- or object, or practice, or whatever --- was actually used in the context that we are trying to understand. Frequently it is close to a complete waste of time to try to understand the past in terms of the present. Earlier today somebody sent me a paper that dealt with the translation from Old Javanese of a couple of well known kakawins --- the Sutasoma, and the Nagara Kertagama. The striking thing was that several very respected scholars had translated passages in very different ways, in other words, these experts had understood the original texts to say different things, not widely different, but different, and sometimes in the context of the story being related, illogical. So, to get back to the matter of asanas. Is that word "asana" really the correct word to use when we talk about the observed posture of sculpted figure? In the context that concerns us, we are talking about Jawa at a time when the language used was Old Javanese, and we are talking about Bali. In modern times, the word "asana" seems to have come into English, and I believe that any native English speaker who knows the word would understand it in its English language sense. Maybe, just maybe, we are trying to understand these poses in art from the wrong direction. Maybe these poses that we see in keris hilts, and in other sculptures are to be interpreted in a way that is not really related to the spiritual, but possibly to dance, where certain postures are a part of the vocabulary of performance art. Anyway, as I have already said, I know nothing about all this stuff yet, and I have not got enough data to even begin to think about it. But given time it might become a little bit more clear than it is now.