The so-called " cobra swords"

Jens Nordlunde · 24th November 2019, 02:01 PM

Ariel, since you mentioned it yourself.
In Hindu Arms and Ritual Robert Elgood, in chapter 8, shows a Gana (arms bearer for the great gods). It is from a cave temple and said to be from the 7th century. The relief shows a Gana holding a very kukri like knife.
In the same chapter he shows forward curved swords from the 15th and 17th century.
Is the Aydha Katthi a reminiscence of these blades? The Sosan Pattah is likely to be.

Jim McDougall · 24th November 2019, 04:17 PM

In the original post, it was asked, (1) if southern and northwest examples of these distinctive 'chakra disc' type blades could be separated by the hilts mounted on them.
(2) it was asked if the South Indian examples could have 'replacement' hilts.

If I am understanding correctly, the objective is to determine the regional place of origin of these blades as a type, and if they indeed became used as far north as Afghanistan, given the oft appearance of the paluoar hilts on them.

It seems to me that the incorporation of the disc is agreed to be a religiously inspired element from the Hindu 'chakra', and that it is indeed placed symbolically is further indicated in the unusual placement toward tip instead of forte of the blade on the khanda illustrated.

The blades seem to be typically deeply fullered or channeled in the manner of earlier Vijayanagara types, and with the chakra feature added.

These factors considered lead me to believe the origins of this style of blade to be effectively a southern convention, and that the use of the disc element may have evolved from similar blade 'widenings' of perhaps earlier forms.
It is clear that there have been atavistic adoptions of diverse blade forms from iconographic sources in southern India for some time, and as well noted by Jens, these styles often, if not typically moved northward in the regions of the subcontinent.

Whatever the case, it would be difficult to try to assess the regional provenance of an example with this type blade simply by the hilt it bears given the obvious disparity of the hilts seen on them. That being the case is directly in line with question (2), the replacement of handles on these type blades, which is well known in India with the propensity for refurbishing weapons.
It is well established that blades were a widely traded and exchanged commodity, whose often long working lives in many cases resulted in rehilting with favored local styles and upgraded fashions.

In the case of the paluoar hilted versions, it seems these were likely to have been syncretically joined in regions of the Deccan and northward as suggested in Elgood in accord with the Pathan element from Afghanistan.
As far as I have known, these distinctive blades are not known in Afghanistan regionally, while obviously the paluoar hilt style found its way southerly into the Pathan enclaves described.

In the cases of these type blades with tulwar; khanda or other hilts, including the curious case of the katar, it would appear mounting again to local favor.
If I recall, it seems that the katar with this feature was even suggested at some point for possible origin of the blade style, unsure on that one.

ariel · 24th November 2019, 04:43 PM

BTW, I could never fully understand why Aydha Katti carries “ Arab influence”. That is repeatedly mentioned in various sources ( Elgood included) but no specific feature is convincingly mentioned.
Deccani Sailaba is in fact a Sousson Patta. And ( I climb on a very thin phonetic limb) the real Afghani name for Khyber knife is “ selavah”. Are we talking about an imperfect homonym or was there a real connection between these two short, single edged chopping weapons? Did the Afghanis adopt it but simplified its construction? After all they have acquired all of their bladed weapons ( and their names, to boot) either from India or from Persia and the sophistication of their bladesmithing was grossly inferior to both. They were utilitarians, not inventors and not decorators.

kronckew · 24th November 2019, 08:18 PM

Transliteration between languages is odd at times, I have a 'Salawar Yataghan' (well, it is indeed slightly recurved) which was so named for me a few years back by one of our prestigious forum members as the more correct name for the item sometimes also called a 'Khyber knife' by us ferengi who do not know better.

ariel · 29th November 2019, 09:18 AM

The very first sword in the series shown by me, has a very " Hindu" pommel: unopened lotus flower. The next one has a peculiar handle: downturned quillons ( Persian/Afghani style) with the same Hindu lotus pommel.

This is perhaps the strongest hint of a transition from Hindu to Afghani style.

Jim McDougall · 29th November 2019, 01:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

The very first sword in the series shown by me, has a very " Hindu" pommel: unopened lotus flower. The next one has a peculiar handle: downturned quillons ( Persian/Afghani style) with the same Hindu lotus pommel.

This is perhaps the strongest hint of a transition from Hindu to Afghani style.

Well noted Ariel, this does well illustrate a kind of syncretic transition from south to north reflected in the combining of these elements. The koftgari designs in the hilt are mindful of Persian/Mughal shikargah themes while the lotus character does seem Hindu oriented as you point out.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 10th December 2019, 02:41 PM

I quote from https://www.pinterest.jp/worldantiqu...a-sword/Pahari sword (cobra sword), this type of sword is generally referred to as Indo-Afghan, describing the mixed Indian and Afghan elements, characterized by the Afghan style handle and Indian straight, double edged, fullered blade bulged at the ricasso, with armor-piercing tip and expanded forte, symmetrical grip". Unquote. ~ and a few pictures on that website to compare below.

24th November 2019, 04:17 PM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,295	In the original post, it was asked, (1) if southern and northwest examples of these distinctive 'chakra disc' type blades could be separated by the hilts mounted on them. (2) it was asked if the South Indian examples could have 'replacement' hilts. If I am understanding correctly, the objective is to determine the regional place of origin of these blades as a type, and if they indeed became used as far north as Afghanistan, given the oft appearance of the paluoar hilts on them. It seems to me that the incorporation of the disc is agreed to be a religiously inspired element from the Hindu 'chakra', and that it is indeed placed symbolically is further indicated in the unusual placement toward tip instead of forte of the blade on the khanda illustrated. The blades seem to be typically deeply fullered or channeled in the manner of earlier Vijayanagara types, and with the chakra feature added. These factors considered lead me to believe the origins of this style of blade to be effectively a southern convention, and that the use of the disc element may have evolved from similar blade 'widenings' of perhaps earlier forms. It is clear that there have been atavistic adoptions of diverse blade forms from iconographic sources in southern India for some time, and as well noted by Jens, these styles often, if not typically moved northward in the regions of the subcontinent. Whatever the case, it would be difficult to try to assess the regional provenance of an example with this type blade simply by the hilt it bears given the obvious disparity of the hilts seen on them. That being the case is directly in line with question (2), the replacement of handles on these type blades, which is well known in India with the propensity for refurbishing weapons. It is well established that blades were a widely traded and exchanged commodity, whose often long working lives in many cases resulted in rehilting with favored local styles and upgraded fashions. In the case of the paluoar hilted versions, it seems these were likely to have been syncretically joined in regions of the Deccan and northward as suggested in Elgood in accord with the Pathan element from Afghanistan. As far as I have known, these distinctive blades are not known in Afghanistan regionally, while obviously the paluoar hilt style found its way southerly into the Pathan enclaves described. In the cases of these type blades with tulwar; khanda or other hilts, including the curious case of the katar, it would appear mounting again to local favor. If I recall, it seems that the katar with this feature was even suggested at some point for possible origin of the blade style, unsure on that one. Attached Images

24th November 2019, 08:18 PM	#4
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,225	Transliteration between languages is odd at times, I have a 'Salawar Yataghan' (well, it is indeed slightly recurved) which was so named for me a few years back by one of our prestigious forum members as the more correct name for the item sometimes also called a 'Khyber knife' by us ferengi who do not know better. Attached Images

10th December 2019, 02:41 PM	#7
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	I quote from https://www.pinterest.jp/worldantiqu...a-sword/Pahari sword (cobra sword), this type of sword is generally referred to as Indo-Afghan, describing the mixed Indian and Afghan elements, characterized by the Afghan style handle and Indian straight, double edged, fullered blade bulged at the ricasso, with armor-piercing tip and expanded forte, symmetrical grip". Unquote. ~ and a few pictures on that website to compare below. Attached Images

24th November 2019, 02:01 PM	#1
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Ariel, since you mentioned it yourself. In Hindu Arms and Ritual Robert Elgood, in chapter 8, shows a Gana (arms bearer for the great gods). It is from a cave temple and said to be from the 7th century. The relief shows a Gana holding a very kukri like knife. In the same chapter he shows forward curved swords from the 15th and 17th century. Is the Aydha Katthi a reminiscence of these blades? The Sosan Pattah is likely to be.

24th November 2019, 04:43 PM	#3
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	BTW, I could never fully understand why Aydha Katti carries “ Arab influence”. That is repeatedly mentioned in various sources ( Elgood included) but no specific feature is convincingly mentioned. Deccani Sailaba is in fact a Sousson Patta. And ( I climb on a very thin phonetic limb) the real Afghani name for Khyber knife is “ selavah”. Are we talking about an imperfect homonym or was there a real connection between these two short, single edged chopping weapons? Did the Afghanis adopt it but simplified its construction? After all they have acquired all of their bladed weapons ( and their names, to boot) either from India or from Persia and the sophistication of their bladesmithing was grossly inferior to both. They were utilitarians, not inventors and not decorators.

29th November 2019, 09:18 AM	#5
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	The very first sword in the series shown by me, has a very " Hindu" pommel: unopened lotus flower. The next one has a peculiar handle: downturned quillons ( Persian/Afghani style) with the same Hindu lotus pommel. This is perhaps the strongest hint of a transition from Hindu to Afghani style.