Elephant swords

Jens Nordlunde · 19th November 2019, 02:54 PM

I know I asked that the posts should stop, but I find the text below too interesting not to post it.

In The Itinerary of Ludovico di Varthema of Bologna from 1502 to 1508. First published 1510. The Argonaut Press, 1928. This copy by Da Capo Press, published 1970.
The author describes below his travels in India [here from Vijayanagar] in the early 16th century, and on page 51 he describes elephants at war.
"When an elephant goes to battle he carries a saddle, in the same manner as they are born by mules of the kingdom of Naples, fastened underneath by two iron chains. On each side of the said saddle he carries a large and very strong wodden box, and in each box there go three men. On the neck of the elephant, between the boxes, they place a plank the size of half a span [about 10 cm], and between the boxes and the plank a man sits astride who speaks to the elephant, for the said elephant possesses more inteligence than any other animal in the world; so there are in all seven persons who go upond the said elephant: and they go armed with shirts of mail, and with bows and lances, swords and shields. And in like manner they arm the elephant with mail, especially the head and the trunk. They fasten to the trunk a sword two braccia long [one braccia is from 46 - 71 cm], and as thick and as wide as the hand of a man. And in that way they fight. And he who sits upon his neck orders him: "Go forward", or "Turn back", Strike this one", Strike that one", Do not strike any more", and he understands as though he were a human being."

fernando · 20th November 2019, 02:00 PM

Hello Jens,
I wonder whether you have suggested that it was time to stop posting in this thread beause of critics (read complaints) over freewheeling material or if you were yourself tired with such contextually inevitable digressions.

Now if i may ...Your present citation of Ludovico di Barthema describing war elephants in the kingdom of Bisnaga (Vijayanagara), while bringing nothing particulary new on the subject, confirms something that the skepticals would reject as being a real fact and, at same time, shows consistency with approaches alread contained (even quoting Barthema) in this very thread;the inteligence of the animal, his ability to understand human comand voices, the sword/s he carries in battle and all.
The difference in the manner the animal is sadlled, mounted and equiped with weapons (swords) may obviously depend upon the region of the Indin sub-continent where this takes place ... or even differ from one arsenal to another.

If this is not too soon, enjoy a Merry Christmas

.

ariel · 20th November 2019, 03:21 PM

Now, with these data ( and hints) we can approximate the weight of an “ elephant sword”.
Using Enrico Fermi’s approach ( guesses will correct each other), let’s assume that the average length of braccia is 55 cm, i. e. Blade 110 cm long, width of 10 cm ( width of human palm) and thickness 2 cm ( thickness of human palm), the volume of the blade will be ~2200 cm3. Steel has density of 7.85 g/cm3. Thus the weight of the sword is ~17 kg. Quite manageable, especially for the elephant, but massive enough to cut a soldier thru and thru.

Nikitin, as I suspected , exaggerated a bit even by Russian standards, but this is common to all travelers. Still, it was not an Indian kentar.

Now, we just need a Bollywood movie showing the elephant in action. Blood and gore galore, followed by song and dance on the body-strewn battlefield! I have popcorn ready.

ariel · 20th November 2019, 04:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando

If this is not too soon, enjoy a Merry Christmas

.

Fernando,
It’s never too soon for good wishes! Same to you and yours!

But... we have Thanksgiving coming next Thursday and are sentenced to chew on a mass of semidigested cardboard popularly known as “turkey”.

This year I am making Leg o’Lamb! With dried apricots and cherries, a touch of Jamaican Jerk ( don’t tell my daughter!), a lot of garlic ( do tell her that!) and a twig of rosemary on the side.
Side dish: basmati rice with real Persian saffron and a lot of almonds.

Our son is bringing over his fiancée. Proposed her month ago, and got enthusiastic “yes”. Yuoo-hooo!!!

Memo to myself: thou shall not overcook lamb.

Jens Nordlunde · 20th November 2019, 04:40 PM

Fernando, I could not bring anything other than what I have read. I am sorry if you dont find it interesting.
All the best for Christmas and New Year to you.

Ariel, yes your weight suggestion could be correct - about 17 kg.
I think most woud have lost their fighting spirit, if knocked at the body or on the head, by an elephant with such a sword.
The dish you are making sounds fantastic:-).

fernando · 20th November 2019, 04:49 PM

Do i see some misunderstanding with the braccia interpretation ?

One braccia, italian for fathom, is equivalent to approx. 1,83cm.
Reason why i commentd in my post #63 that two fatoms, allegedly mentioned by Barthema, was surely an exageration.
In a copy of this traveller's Itinerary translated to Castillian in 1526 by Christoval de Arcos, the author mentions 'dos codos' (two cubits) which gives us a more rational length for such swords; a cubit measuring 44-52 cms.

Hopefuly no criticism pops up for freewheeling entries

.

,

fernando · 20th November 2019, 05:32 PM

Ariel, i confess i wouldn't realize that being a Chef was within the range of your abilities. I take it that skipping the plastified turkey and opt for (not over) cooking leg of lamb is a strategy to captivate your future daughter in law

.
We don't have Thanksgiving day over here ... but we do have lamb, basmati, lots of smashed garlic and lots of spices (that our navigators brought from India whereabouts).

ariel · 20th November 2019, 05:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando

Ariel, i confess i wouldn't realize that being a Chef was within the range of your abilities. I take it that skipping the plastified turkey and opt for (not over) cooking leg of lamb is a strategy to captivate your future daughter in law

.
We don't have Thanksgiving day over here ... but we do have lamb, basmati, lots of smashed garlic and lots of spices (that our navigators brought from India whereabouts).

Yup, you guessed it:-)
And do not short-change Mozambique’s Piri-Piri!

fernando · 20th November 2019, 05:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

... And do not short-change Mozambique’s Piri-Piri!...

Which i and my wife* are fans of; half dozen varities in the spices chest.
*She is a Caucasian but has grown up in Moçambique ... were she caught me, during my army service.

fernando · 20th November 2019, 05:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

... Thus the weight of the sword is ~17 kg. Quite manageable, especially for the elephant, but massive enough to cut a soldier thru and thru ...

A bit too heavy, though ... despite Fermi's formula. No hollow parts ?

ariel · 20th November 2019, 06:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando

A bit too heavy, though ... despite Fermi's formula. No hollow parts ?

Well, no real sword is an ideal rectangle. It might have been curved and narrowing toward the tip, might have had fullers, the “thickness” likely reflects the back and could have had narrowed down toward the edge etc.
You are correct: 17 kg might be an idealized maximum, that’s why I put a range 15-20 kg.

kronckew · 20th November 2019, 07:33 PM

For your continued enjoyement:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qmpx4QTeMKk

Jens Nordlunde · 20th November 2019, 09:42 PM

Very funny Knocknew, you really must be a person with a lot of humor:-).

As none of us have an elephant sword, we are guessing, but when it comes to the weight, I think Ariel is close.

Fernando, you must temember that measurers/weights were more floating centuries ago - and we are speaking about the 16th century.

19th November 2019, 02:54 PM	#1
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	I know I asked that the posts should stop, but I find the text below too interesting not to post it. In The Itinerary of Ludovico di Varthema of Bologna from 1502 to 1508. First published 1510. The Argonaut Press, 1928. This copy by Da Capo Press, published 1970. The author describes below his travels in India [here from Vijayanagar] in the early 16th century, and on page 51 he describes elephants at war. "When an elephant goes to battle he carries a saddle, in the same manner as they are born by mules of the kingdom of Naples, fastened underneath by two iron chains. On each side of the said saddle he carries a large and very strong wodden box, and in each box there go three men. On the neck of the elephant, between the boxes, they place a plank the size of half a span [about 10 cm], and between the boxes and the plank a man sits astride who speaks to the elephant, for the said elephant possesses more inteligence than any other animal in the world; so there are in all seven persons who go upond the said elephant: and they go armed with shirts of mail, and with bows and lances, swords and shields. And in like manner they arm the elephant with mail, especially the head and the trunk. They fasten to the trunk a sword two braccia long [one braccia is from 46 - 71 cm], and as thick and as wide as the hand of a man. And in that way they fight. And he who sits upon his neck orders him: "Go forward", or "Turn back", Strike this one", Strike that one", Do not strike any more", and he understands as though he were a human being." Last edited by Jens Nordlunde; 19th November 2019 at 04:32 PM.

20th November 2019, 03:21 PM	#3
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Now, with these data ( and hints) we can approximate the weight of an “ elephant sword”. Using Enrico Fermi’s approach ( guesses will correct each other), let’s assume that the average length of braccia is 55 cm, i. e. Blade 110 cm long, width of 10 cm ( width of human palm) and thickness 2 cm ( thickness of human palm), the volume of the blade will be ~2200 cm3. Steel has density of 7.85 g/cm3. Thus the weight of the sword is ~17 kg. Quite manageable, especially for the elephant, but massive enough to cut a soldier thru and thru. Nikitin, as I suspected , exaggerated a bit even by Russian standards, but this is common to all travelers. Still, it was not an Indian kentar. Now, we just need a Bollywood movie showing the elephant in action. Blood and gore galore, followed by song and dance on the body-strewn battlefield! I have popcorn ready. Last edited by ariel; 20th November 2019 at 03:59 PM.

20th November 2019, 04:40 PM	#5
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Fernando, I could not bring anything other than what I have read. I am sorry if you dont find it interesting. All the best for Christmas and New Year to you. Ariel, yes your weight suggestion could be correct - about 17 kg. I think most woud have lost their fighting spirit, if knocked at the body or on the head, by an elephant with such a sword. The dish you are making sounds fantastic:-). Last edited by Jens Nordlunde; 20th November 2019 at 04:51 PM.

20th November 2019, 02:00 PM	#2
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Hello Jens, I wonder whether you have suggested that it was time to stop posting in this thread beause of critics (read complaints) over freewheeling material or if you were yourself tired with such contextually inevitable digressions. Now if i may ...Your present citation of Ludovico di Barthema describing war elephants in the kingdom of Bisnaga (Vijayanagara), while bringing nothing particulary new on the subject, confirms something that the skepticals would reject as being a real fact and, at same time, shows consistency with approaches alread contained (even quoting Barthema) in this very thread;the inteligence of the animal, his ability to understand human comand voices, the sword/s he carries in battle and all. The difference in the manner the animal is sadlled, mounted and equiped with weapons (swords) may obviously depend upon the region of the Indin sub-continent where this takes place ... or even differ from one arsenal to another. If this is not too soon, enjoy a Merry Christmas .

20th November 2019, 04:49 PM	#6
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Do i see some misunderstanding with the braccia interpretation ? One braccia, italian for fathom, is equivalent to approx. 1,83cm. Reason why i commentd in my post #63 that two fatoms, allegedly mentioned by Barthema, was surely an exageration. In a copy of this traveller's Itinerary translated to Castillian in 1526 by Christoval de Arcos, the author mentions 'dos codos' (two cubits) which gives us a more rational length for such swords; a cubit measuring 44-52 cms. Hopefuly no criticism pops up for freewheeling entries . , Attached Images

20th November 2019, 05:32 PM	#7
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Ariel, i confess i wouldn't realize that being a Chef was within the range of your abilities. I take it that skipping the plastified turkey and opt for (not over) cooking leg of lamb is a strategy to captivate your future daughter in law . We don't have Thanksgiving day over here ... but we do have lamb, basmati, lots of smashed garlic and lots of spices (that our navigators brought from India whereabouts).

20th November 2019, 07:33 PM	#12
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,224	For your continued enjoyement: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qmpx4QTeMKk

20th November 2019, 09:42 PM	#13
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Very funny Knocknew, you really must be a person with a lot of humor:-). As none of us have an elephant sword, we are guessing, but when it comes to the weight, I think Ariel is close. Fernando, you must temember that measurers/weights were more floating centuries ago - and we are speaking about the 16th century.