Keris with „sickleshape-blade“ for comments

David · 9th November 2019, 05:01 PM

Sorry for taking so long to follow up on responses. Thanks for posting these newer photos.
From my personal perspective i would certainly call this a keris and can see in your newer pics that it is indeed a well crafted piece that was certainly (or almost so since certainty is dangerous in the keris world

) say that the curve is original and made with intention.
I do, of course, agree with Alan on the question of dhapur names. As Alan says, dhapur is set down in pakem and i don't think you will find this one in any known pakem. Of course, it is the penchant of collectors everywhere to name, tag and catalog every aspect of the things they collect and keris are no different. So be it disdainful or not, i suspect that people will continue to apply dhapur names to keris for which none should actually apply. As Alan says, the "invention of the trade". And for many if you cannot put a name to every aspect of the keris you cannot possibly understand that keris. But i will disagree that we have a jambiyo-like keris, or a keris-like jambiyo. Why? Because just as a wavy blade of any sort is not automatically a keris as so many uninformed folks seem to think, every blade with a curve like this is not a jambiyo. I just don't think that the curve alone is enough to justify the comparison and think you were being much more accurate describing it as "sickle-shaped".
I also don't think we can necessarily disregard the possibility of esoteric and/or spiritual reasons for regarding this as a legitimate keris. Given that it seem to be clearly old and intention work i do not believe we can ever truly know what the intention of the maker and/or original owner was for this dagger.
For the record it is something i would gladly add to my own collection if i were to have encountered it first.

Amuk Murugul · 9th November 2019, 09:31 PM

Hullo again Thomas!

Just to follow up on my previous response:
The following central Java description may relate to your post :

dapur jambeya:straight blade, pejetan, tikel alis, tingil.

Sticking point: Just how curved can a blade be to be accepted as "straight"?

Best,

A. G. Maisey · 10th November 2019, 02:41 AM

That's interesting Amuk.

Are you able to name the source for this information?

In fact, Mpu Djeno compiled a pakem according to his understanding, and in that he lists 3 slightly curved keris:-

Dhapur Pamungkas, which has about as much curve as a Bugis blade
Dhapur Damarmurup, which has a pretty decent sort of smooth curve
DhapurDamarmuruptuding, which has a lopsided kind of curve.

In fact, the ricikan that you have listed for Dhapur Jambiyo are precisely the same as for the general understanding of Tilam Sari.

Jean · 10th November 2019, 10:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

That's interesting Amuk.

Are you able to name the source for this information?

In fact, Mpu Djeno compiled a pakem according to his understanding, and in that he lists 3 slightly curved keris:-

Dhapur Pamungkas, which has about as much curve as a Bugis blade
Dhapur Damarmurup, which has a pretty decent sort of smooth curve
DhapurDamarmuruptuding, which has a lopsided kind of curve.

In fact, the ricikan that you have listed for Dhapur Jambiyo are precisely the same as for the general understanding of Tilam Sari.

Hello Alan,
This is the source of information of Amuk.
This book "Keris Daya Magic - Manfaat - Tuah - Misteri" was first published in 1997 and it lists 380 straight dapurs/ designs of Javanese blades so much more than the Surakarta pakem. Whether it is legitimate or not is another story but it is quite popular in Indonesia....
However the author basically reproduces the Surakarta pakem at the end of the book but with some variations.
Regards

Mickey the Finn · 10th November 2019, 11:29 AM

"Keris [&] Daya Magic-Manfaat-Tuah-Misteri (Edisi Revisi)"
Ki Hudoyo Doyodipuro,Occ.
5th printing 2000
Publisher: Dahara Prize Semarang
Printer: Effhar Offset Semarang

My copy, around that time, went for 121,673 Rp. (Not for sale. Price for information purposes only. No offers, no matter how unreasonable, will be entertained). Currently, about 859,000 Rp. at one unnamed seller. [I am not that unnamed seller. I found that price by googling the title and converting the USD price quoted there].

A. G. Maisey · 10th November 2019, 05:35 PM

Thank you gentlemen.

Yes, I know that book, I've read it, I think I've still got a copy somewhere. Going back some years I sold a few copies of it.

That list of dhapur in the book will possibly have been drawn from one of the many books and leaflets that were printed in late colonial times, there were also a couple done almost immediately after Indonesia became a country. Daya Magic might have a reference for where this was drawn from. When I get time I'll have a look through my copies of some of these old publications --- I have copies of everything about keris that is in the Mangkunegaraan library, all except Pirngadie.

David · 17th November 2019, 01:15 AM

Unfortunately there is not much of this video that i can understand, but there is quite a bit of focus and discussion going on surrounding the sickle-like keris shown here so i am hoping that those who speak the language will find some useful information here regarding such keris blades.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pBOh...S6WMbTzbsCgrJE

9th November 2019, 09:31 PM	#2
Amuk Murugul Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Kaboejoetan Galoenggoeng Mélben Posts: 472	"Dapur Jambeya"? Hullo again Thomas! Just to follow up on my previous response: The following central Java description may relate to your post : dapur jambeya:straight blade, pejetan, tikel alis, tingil. Sticking point: Just how curved can a blade be to be accepted as "straight"? Best,

9th November 2019, 05:01 PM	#1
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,209	Sorry for taking so long to follow up on responses. Thanks for posting these newer photos. From my personal perspective i would certainly call this a keris and can see in your newer pics that it is indeed a well crafted piece that was certainly (or almost so since certainty is dangerous in the keris world ) say that the curve is original and made with intention. I do, of course, agree with Alan on the question of dhapur names. As Alan says, dhapur is set down in pakem and i don't think you will find this one in any known pakem. Of course, it is the penchant of collectors everywhere to name, tag and catalog every aspect of the things they collect and keris are no different. So be it disdainful or not, i suspect that people will continue to apply dhapur names to keris for which none should actually apply. As Alan says, the "invention of the trade". And for many if you cannot put a name to every aspect of the keris you cannot possibly understand that keris. But i will disagree that we have a jambiyo-like keris, or a keris-like jambiyo. Why? Because just as a wavy blade of any sort is not automatically a keris as so many uninformed folks seem to think, every blade with a curve like this is not a jambiyo. I just don't think that the curve alone is enough to justify the comparison and think you were being much more accurate describing it as "sickle-shaped". I also don't think we can necessarily disregard the possibility of esoteric and/or spiritual reasons for regarding this as a legitimate keris. Given that it seem to be clearly old and intention work i do not believe we can ever truly know what the intention of the maker and/or original owner was for this dagger. For the record it is something i would gladly add to my own collection if i were to have encountered it first.

10th November 2019, 02:41 AM	#3
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,989	That's interesting Amuk. Are you able to name the source for this information? In fact, Mpu Djeno compiled a pakem according to his understanding, and in that he lists 3 slightly curved keris:- Dhapur Pamungkas, which has about as much curve as a Bugis blade Dhapur Damarmurup, which has a pretty decent sort of smooth curve DhapurDamarmuruptuding, which has a lopsided kind of curve. In fact, the ricikan that you have listed for Dhapur Jambiyo are precisely the same as for the general understanding of Tilam Sari.

10th November 2019, 11:29 AM	#5
Mickey the Finn Member Join Date: Dec 2017 Posts: 90	"Keris [&] Daya Magic-Manfaat-Tuah-Misteri (Edisi Revisi)" Ki Hudoyo Doyodipuro,Occ. 5th printing 2000 Publisher: Dahara Prize Semarang Printer: Effhar Offset Semarang My copy, around that time, went for 121,673 Rp. (Not for sale. Price for information purposes only. No offers, no matter how unreasonable, will be entertained). Currently, about 859,000 Rp. at one unnamed seller. [I am not that unnamed seller. I found that price by googling the title and converting the USD price quoted there].

10th November 2019, 05:35 PM	#6
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,989	Thank you gentlemen. Yes, I know that book, I've read it, I think I've still got a copy somewhere. Going back some years I sold a few copies of it. That list of dhapur in the book will possibly have been drawn from one of the many books and leaflets that were printed in late colonial times, there were also a couple done almost immediately after Indonesia became a country. Daya Magic might have a reference for where this was drawn from. When I get time I'll have a look through my copies of some of these old publications --- I have copies of everything about keris that is in the Mangkunegaraan library, all except Pirngadie.

17th November 2019, 01:15 AM	#7
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,209	Unfortunately there is not much of this video that i can understand, but there is quite a bit of focus and discussion going on surrounding the sickle-like keris shown here so i am hoping that those who speak the language will find some useful information here regarding such keris blades. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pBOh...S6WMbTzbsCgrJE