Keris with „sickleshape-blade“ for comments

Henk · 6th November 2019, 02:49 PM

I agree with Alan. I do remember that the collector who showed me such a keris called it a bent keris and a rarity. He certainly didn't refered to a dapur.

JBG163 · 6th November 2019, 05:55 PM

From a javanese friend :

"dhapur Kuku bima"

A. G. Maisey · 6th November 2019, 07:45 PM

I would most gently suggest that "Dhapur Kuku Bima" is an invention of the trade, or of Indonesian collectors from the modern era. I very much doubt that this dhapur will be found in any legitimate pakem.

thomas hauschild · 6th November 2019, 07:55 PM

Have the piece now in my hand. Some close ups from the blade.

Best Thomas

David · 9th November 2019, 05:01 PM

Sorry for taking so long to follow up on responses. Thanks for posting these newer photos.
From my personal perspective i would certainly call this a keris and can see in your newer pics that it is indeed a well crafted piece that was certainly (or almost so since certainty is dangerous in the keris world

) say that the curve is original and made with intention.
I do, of course, agree with Alan on the question of dhapur names. As Alan says, dhapur is set down in pakem and i don't think you will find this one in any known pakem. Of course, it is the penchant of collectors everywhere to name, tag and catalog every aspect of the things they collect and keris are no different. So be it disdainful or not, i suspect that people will continue to apply dhapur names to keris for which none should actually apply. As Alan says, the "invention of the trade". And for many if you cannot put a name to every aspect of the keris you cannot possibly understand that keris. But i will disagree that we have a jambiyo-like keris, or a keris-like jambiyo. Why? Because just as a wavy blade of any sort is not automatically a keris as so many uninformed folks seem to think, every blade with a curve like this is not a jambiyo. I just don't think that the curve alone is enough to justify the comparison and think you were being much more accurate describing it as "sickle-shaped".
I also don't think we can necessarily disregard the possibility of esoteric and/or spiritual reasons for regarding this as a legitimate keris. Given that it seem to be clearly old and intention work i do not believe we can ever truly know what the intention of the maker and/or original owner was for this dagger.
For the record it is something i would gladly add to my own collection if i were to have encountered it first.

Amuk Murugul · 9th November 2019, 09:31 PM

Hullo again Thomas!

Just to follow up on my previous response:
The following central Java description may relate to your post :

dapur jambeya:straight blade, pejetan, tikel alis, tingil.

Sticking point: Just how curved can a blade be to be accepted as "straight"?

Best,

A. G. Maisey · 10th November 2019, 02:41 AM

That's interesting Amuk.

Are you able to name the source for this information?

In fact, Mpu Djeno compiled a pakem according to his understanding, and in that he lists 3 slightly curved keris:-

Dhapur Pamungkas, which has about as much curve as a Bugis blade
Dhapur Damarmurup, which has a pretty decent sort of smooth curve
DhapurDamarmuruptuding, which has a lopsided kind of curve.

In fact, the ricikan that you have listed for Dhapur Jambiyo are precisely the same as for the general understanding of Tilam Sari.

Jean · 10th November 2019, 10:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

That's interesting Amuk.

Are you able to name the source for this information?

In fact, Mpu Djeno compiled a pakem according to his understanding, and in that he lists 3 slightly curved keris:-

Dhapur Pamungkas, which has about as much curve as a Bugis blade
Dhapur Damarmurup, which has a pretty decent sort of smooth curve
DhapurDamarmuruptuding, which has a lopsided kind of curve.

In fact, the ricikan that you have listed for Dhapur Jambiyo are precisely the same as for the general understanding of Tilam Sari.

Hello Alan,
This is the source of information of Amuk.
This book "Keris Daya Magic - Manfaat - Tuah - Misteri" was first published in 1997 and it lists 380 straight dapurs/ designs of Javanese blades so much more than the Surakarta pakem. Whether it is legitimate or not is another story but it is quite popular in Indonesia....
However the author basically reproduces the Surakarta pakem at the end of the book but with some variations.
Regards

6th November 2019, 07:55 PM	#4
thomas hauschild Member Join Date: May 2017 Location: Germany Posts: 141	Have the piece now in my hand. Some close ups from the blade. Best Thomas Attached Images

9th November 2019, 09:31 PM	#6
Amuk Murugul Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Kaboejoetan Galoenggoeng Mélben Posts: 472	"Dapur Jambeya"? Hullo again Thomas! Just to follow up on my previous response: The following central Java description may relate to your post : dapur jambeya:straight blade, pejetan, tikel alis, tingil. Sticking point: Just how curved can a blade be to be accepted as "straight"? Best,

6th November 2019, 02:49 PM	#1
Henk Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,209	I agree with Alan. I do remember that the collector who showed me such a keris called it a bent keris and a rarity. He certainly didn't refered to a dapur.

6th November 2019, 05:55 PM	#2
JBG163 Member Join Date: Sep 2019 Location: France Posts: 208	From a javanese friend : "dhapur Kuku bima"

6th November 2019, 07:45 PM	#3
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,988	I would most gently suggest that "Dhapur Kuku Bima" is an invention of the trade, or of Indonesian collectors from the modern era. I very much doubt that this dhapur will be found in any legitimate pakem.

9th November 2019, 05:01 PM	#5
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,209	Sorry for taking so long to follow up on responses. Thanks for posting these newer photos. From my personal perspective i would certainly call this a keris and can see in your newer pics that it is indeed a well crafted piece that was certainly (or almost so since certainty is dangerous in the keris world ) say that the curve is original and made with intention. I do, of course, agree with Alan on the question of dhapur names. As Alan says, dhapur is set down in pakem and i don't think you will find this one in any known pakem. Of course, it is the penchant of collectors everywhere to name, tag and catalog every aspect of the things they collect and keris are no different. So be it disdainful or not, i suspect that people will continue to apply dhapur names to keris for which none should actually apply. As Alan says, the "invention of the trade". And for many if you cannot put a name to every aspect of the keris you cannot possibly understand that keris. But i will disagree that we have a jambiyo-like keris, or a keris-like jambiyo. Why? Because just as a wavy blade of any sort is not automatically a keris as so many uninformed folks seem to think, every blade with a curve like this is not a jambiyo. I just don't think that the curve alone is enough to justify the comparison and think you were being much more accurate describing it as "sickle-shaped". I also don't think we can necessarily disregard the possibility of esoteric and/or spiritual reasons for regarding this as a legitimate keris. Given that it seem to be clearly old and intention work i do not believe we can ever truly know what the intention of the maker and/or original owner was for this dagger. For the record it is something i would gladly add to my own collection if i were to have encountered it first.

10th November 2019, 02:41 AM	#7
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,988	That's interesting Amuk. Are you able to name the source for this information? In fact, Mpu Djeno compiled a pakem according to his understanding, and in that he lists 3 slightly curved keris:- Dhapur Pamungkas, which has about as much curve as a Bugis blade Dhapur Damarmurup, which has a pretty decent sort of smooth curve DhapurDamarmuruptuding, which has a lopsided kind of curve. In fact, the ricikan that you have listed for Dhapur Jambiyo are precisely the same as for the general understanding of Tilam Sari.