Afghan shashkas

Jim McDougall · 28th October 2019, 06:39 PM

Ariel thank you for the response, insights and interesting observations. As someone also fascinated with Afghan and Central Asian shashkas I must say I feel like I am 'among giants' with the perspectives given here. I admit despite years of studying these myself, I am by far still learning.
Kubur, great images!!! Really add dimension to this view into these.

On the scabbard 'drag', what I learned of these is perhaps hyperbole, but with European swords, it was fashionable in the 'hussar' trend, to wear sabers low slung and virtually dragging along as the individual walked. ...much in the manner of clinking spurs with cowboys. Naturally the hand of the sabre was probably more to the position while mounted, but the characteristic set a fashion.

There is likely a more pragmatic explanation in the scabbard structure itself, but the style in the case of these Afghan shashkas may have been simply adopting European military fashions.

ariel · 28th October 2019, 07:54 PM

Kubur,
Both of them carry sabers in a typical saber style: edge down.
The first one has a saber likely made by the Tubchiev brothers ( from Daghestan), who learned enameling in Central Asia and brought with them niello in exchange.
The second one.... his robe is too multicolored to see the handle clearly.

My hesitations about the "pseudoshashka" are as follows:
1. The blade is very curved, not typical for those Afghani swords. Likely remounted shamshir.
2. The slit is on the wrong side. Moreover, I have never seen slits in pseudoshashkas: their curvatures are not as pronounced. Mainly, they are seen on Ottoman kilijes. I am sure you have several of those, just try to unsheath them holding the sword horizontally but with the slit being above or below. See which position is more comfortable.
3. The handle is asymmetrically placed, in a typical "pseudoshashka" style. If my suspicion about the blade coming from a shamshir is correct, the tang should have been re-worked. I would x-ray the handle to look for any signs of it.
4. I am uneasy re. contour change in the middle of the scabbard. Looks as if it was re-formed and the modified area was covered by the suspension fitting.
5. Was the leather stitched in the Ottoman style: wire "springs"? Would be nice to see a close-up pic.

Obviously, I am at a great disadvantage because of my inability to inspect the sword personally. But the owner can do it if he wishes and disabuse me of my suspicions.
As I have already said, it is a beautiful and highly unusual pseudoshashka. The former is indisputable. The latter is what makes my antennae twitch.

mahratt · 28th October 2019, 08:12 PM

Ariel, calm your antennae.

This Afghan shashka, which you persistently call pseudoshashka (but it’s excusable, old people are usually very conservative), has no problems

Sorry, but I don't care much about your "suspicions." And certainly not so much that I was in a hurry to “disabuse” you.
Some of the forum participants who were visiting me in Moscow had the opportunity to carefully consider this shashka))))

And one moment. If you didn’t see something, then it only says that you didn’t see it and nothing more

28th October 2019, 06:39 PM	#1
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,281	Ariel thank you for the response, insights and interesting observations. As someone also fascinated with Afghan and Central Asian shashkas I must say I feel like I am 'among giants' with the perspectives given here. I admit despite years of studying these myself, I am by far still learning. Kubur, great images!!! Really add dimension to this view into these. On the scabbard 'drag', what I learned of these is perhaps hyperbole, but with European swords, it was fashionable in the 'hussar' trend, to wear sabers low slung and virtually dragging along as the individual walked. ...much in the manner of clinking spurs with cowboys. Naturally the hand of the sabre was probably more to the position while mounted, but the characteristic set a fashion. There is likely a more pragmatic explanation in the scabbard structure itself, but the style in the case of these Afghan shashkas may have been simply adopting European military fashions.

28th October 2019, 07:54 PM	#2
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Kubur, Both of them carry sabers in a typical saber style: edge down. The first one has a saber likely made by the Tubchiev brothers ( from Daghestan), who learned enameling in Central Asia and brought with them niello in exchange. The second one.... his robe is too multicolored to see the handle clearly. My hesitations about the "pseudoshashka" are as follows: 1. The blade is very curved, not typical for those Afghani swords. Likely remounted shamshir. 2. The slit is on the wrong side. Moreover, I have never seen slits in pseudoshashkas: their curvatures are not as pronounced. Mainly, they are seen on Ottoman kilijes. I am sure you have several of those, just try to unsheath them holding the sword horizontally but with the slit being above or below. See which position is more comfortable. 3. The handle is asymmetrically placed, in a typical "pseudoshashka" style. If my suspicion about the blade coming from a shamshir is correct, the tang should have been re-worked. I would x-ray the handle to look for any signs of it. 4. I am uneasy re. contour change in the middle of the scabbard. Looks as if it was re-formed and the modified area was covered by the suspension fitting. 5. Was the leather stitched in the Ottoman style: wire "springs"? Would be nice to see a close-up pic. Obviously, I am at a great disadvantage because of my inability to inspect the sword personally. But the owner can do it if he wishes and disabuse me of my suspicions. As I have already said, it is a beautiful and highly unusual pseudoshashka. The former is indisputable. The latter is what makes my antennae twitch.

28th October 2019, 08:12 PM	#3
mahratt Member Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Russia Posts: 1,042	Ariel, calm your antennae. This Afghan shashka, which you persistently call pseudoshashka (but it’s excusable, old people are usually very conservative), has no problems Sorry, but I don't care much about your "suspicions." And certainly not so much that I was in a hurry to “disabuse” you. Some of the forum participants who were visiting me in Moscow had the opportunity to carefully consider this shashka)))) And one moment. If you didn’t see something, then it only says that you didn’t see it and nothing more