Afghan shashkas

mahratt · 27th October 2019, 08:52 PM

Book illustration: "The Life of Abdur Rahman, Amir of Afghanistan Volume 2"

ariel · 27th October 2019, 10:55 PM

Jim,

I have a Georgian Khmali and a spare Caucasian Shashka’s chape, both with drags.

I also have 2 Afghani pseudo-shashkas, both without drags.

My guess , drags were relatively recent additions, designed primarily for infantry officers or for the cavalry ones who had to carry them to the regimental balls:-)
They were just protectors of the scabbard tips.
They migrated to the “Orient” from Europe; again my guess,- not earlier than the early 19 century ( Caucasian), late 19 for the Afghani examples.

Neither of my Afghani pseudoshashkas have throat slits, and I can’t recall one. No miracle: they were not deeply curved and did not need a slit.
The more I look at it, the more I think that this gorgeous pseudo-shashka was reworked, re-assembled from different parts and massively prettified. Right now I would not be able to disagree with the idea that the “ prettyfication” process was done recently: far too many inconsistencies.

mahratt · 28th October 2019, 04:56 AM

Many thanks for your opinion, drawn up on the basis of your 4 shashkas. It’s always nice to see how a person is trying to think and compare something.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

I think that this gorgeous pseudo-shashka was reworked, re-assembled from different parts and massively prettified. Right now I would not be able to disagree with the idea that the “ prettyfication” process was done recently: far too many inconsistencies.

To make any serious conclusions about the item on the basis of photographs (without holding the item in hand) is certainly a sign of “great specialist”. I am flattered that I am on the same forum as YOU and can get your opinion. Thank you so much!

Kubur · 28th October 2019, 04:25 PM

Look at the scabbard of the guy in Samarkand...

Jim McDougall · 28th October 2019, 06:39 PM

Ariel thank you for the response, insights and interesting observations. As someone also fascinated with Afghan and Central Asian shashkas I must say I feel like I am 'among giants' with the perspectives given here. I admit despite years of studying these myself, I am by far still learning.
Kubur, great images!!! Really add dimension to this view into these.

On the scabbard 'drag', what I learned of these is perhaps hyperbole, but with European swords, it was fashionable in the 'hussar' trend, to wear sabers low slung and virtually dragging along as the individual walked. ...much in the manner of clinking spurs with cowboys. Naturally the hand of the sabre was probably more to the position while mounted, but the characteristic set a fashion.

There is likely a more pragmatic explanation in the scabbard structure itself, but the style in the case of these Afghan shashkas may have been simply adopting European military fashions.

ariel · 28th October 2019, 07:54 PM

Kubur,
Both of them carry sabers in a typical saber style: edge down.
The first one has a saber likely made by the Tubchiev brothers ( from Daghestan), who learned enameling in Central Asia and brought with them niello in exchange.
The second one.... his robe is too multicolored to see the handle clearly.

My hesitations about the "pseudoshashka" are as follows:
1. The blade is very curved, not typical for those Afghani swords. Likely remounted shamshir.
2. The slit is on the wrong side. Moreover, I have never seen slits in pseudoshashkas: their curvatures are not as pronounced. Mainly, they are seen on Ottoman kilijes. I am sure you have several of those, just try to unsheath them holding the sword horizontally but with the slit being above or below. See which position is more comfortable.
3. The handle is asymmetrically placed, in a typical "pseudoshashka" style. If my suspicion about the blade coming from a shamshir is correct, the tang should have been re-worked. I would x-ray the handle to look for any signs of it.
4. I am uneasy re. contour change in the middle of the scabbard. Looks as if it was re-formed and the modified area was covered by the suspension fitting.
5. Was the leather stitched in the Ottoman style: wire "springs"? Would be nice to see a close-up pic.

Obviously, I am at a great disadvantage because of my inability to inspect the sword personally. But the owner can do it if he wishes and disabuse me of my suspicions.
As I have already said, it is a beautiful and highly unusual pseudoshashka. The former is indisputable. The latter is what makes my antennae twitch.

mahratt · 28th October 2019, 08:12 PM

Ariel, calm your antennae.

This Afghan shashka, which you persistently call pseudoshashka (but it’s excusable, old people are usually very conservative), has no problems

Sorry, but I don't care much about your "suspicions." And certainly not so much that I was in a hurry to “disabuse” you.
Some of the forum participants who were visiting me in Moscow had the opportunity to carefully consider this shashka))))

And one moment. If you didn’t see something, then it only says that you didn’t see it and nothing more

mahratt · 28th October 2019, 09:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kubur

Look at the scabbard of the guy in Samarkand...

Kubur, you are absolutely right. The scabbard with the element that I circled in red (if I understand correctly, the discussion was about it) has been marked in Afghanistan since the first half of the 19th century.
Color lithography is the 1840s (from the watercolors of Lieutenant Rаttrаy), the black and white image is an illustration from book Bellew: Journal Of A Political Mission To Afghanistan In 1857 (here we can see the afghan shashka) https://archive.org/details/journalo...501mbp/page/n7

ariel · 29th October 2019, 04:08 AM

Kubur,
I enlarged the pics of Mahratt's pseudoshashka.
See. pic #6 from the top: typical Ottoman stitching and the fitting disturbed the seam mightily, to the point of tearing the wire stitches. I am more and more certain that the fitting was turned upside down to create a "shashka-like" appearance of the scabbard, and that the scabbard was originally Ottoman and not Afghani.

Have you tried to play with one of your kilijes and unsheath the sword when the slit is on top or on the bottom? Would like to get your impression.
As a matter of fact, other Forumites may try it too: the more opinions the better. We seem to have a fun exercise.

mahratt · 29th October 2019, 05:24 AM

Hi Kubur.
The desire of our friend Ariel to prove that he is always right, often plays a bad joke with him. He begins to see that which is not. And he does not want to see what is, but does not coincide with his opinion

In this case, having initially made erroneous conclusions, he saw a “wire seam” (or its "footprints") that no and never was on the scabbard of this Afghan shashka... Sorry, but on the scabbard, a seam from an ordinary thread ...

Ariel, dear friend, I remembered the Russian La Fontaine - the the author of the fables Krylov and one of his fable, where the main character lost his sharp vision with age ...

P.S. Knowing Ariel’s "youthful enthusiasm", I’m sure that he will continue to find fault with something else. So prepare more popcorn

27th October 2019, 08:52 PM	#1
mahratt Member Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Russia Posts: 1,042	Book illustration: "The Life of Abdur Rahman, Amir of Afghanistan Volume 2" Attached Images

27th October 2019, 10:55 PM	#2
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Jim, I have a Georgian Khmali and a spare Caucasian Shashka’s chape, both with drags. I also have 2 Afghani pseudo-shashkas, both without drags. My guess , drags were relatively recent additions, designed primarily for infantry officers or for the cavalry ones who had to carry them to the regimental balls:-) They were just protectors of the scabbard tips. They migrated to the “Orient” from Europe; again my guess,- not earlier than the early 19 century ( Caucasian), late 19 for the Afghani examples. Neither of my Afghani pseudoshashkas have throat slits, and I can’t recall one. No miracle: they were not deeply curved and did not need a slit. The more I look at it, the more I think that this gorgeous pseudo-shashka was reworked, re-assembled from different parts and massively prettified. Right now I would not be able to disagree with the idea that the “ prettyfication” process was done recently: far too many inconsistencies. Last edited by ariel; 27th October 2019 at 11:39 PM.

28th October 2019, 04:25 PM	#4
Kubur Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 2,145	Look at the scabbard of the guy in Samarkand... Attached Images

29th October 2019, 05:24 AM	#10
mahratt Member Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Russia Posts: 1,042	Hi Kubur. The desire of our friend Ariel to prove that he is always right, often plays a bad joke with him. He begins to see that which is not. And he does not want to see what is, but does not coincide with his opinion In this case, having initially made erroneous conclusions, he saw a “wire seam” (or its "footprints") that no and never was on the scabbard of this Afghan shashka... Sorry, but on the scabbard, a seam from an ordinary thread ... Ariel, dear friend, I remembered the Russian La Fontaine - the the author of the fables Krylov and one of his fable, where the main character lost his sharp vision with age ... P.S. Knowing Ariel’s "youthful enthusiasm", I’m sure that he will continue to find fault with something else. So prepare more popcorn Attached Images

28th October 2019, 06:39 PM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,281	Ariel thank you for the response, insights and interesting observations. As someone also fascinated with Afghan and Central Asian shashkas I must say I feel like I am 'among giants' with the perspectives given here. I admit despite years of studying these myself, I am by far still learning. Kubur, great images!!! Really add dimension to this view into these. On the scabbard 'drag', what I learned of these is perhaps hyperbole, but with European swords, it was fashionable in the 'hussar' trend, to wear sabers low slung and virtually dragging along as the individual walked. ...much in the manner of clinking spurs with cowboys. Naturally the hand of the sabre was probably more to the position while mounted, but the characteristic set a fashion. There is likely a more pragmatic explanation in the scabbard structure itself, but the style in the case of these Afghan shashkas may have been simply adopting European military fashions.

28th October 2019, 07:54 PM	#6
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Kubur, Both of them carry sabers in a typical saber style: edge down. The first one has a saber likely made by the Tubchiev brothers ( from Daghestan), who learned enameling in Central Asia and brought with them niello in exchange. The second one.... his robe is too multicolored to see the handle clearly. My hesitations about the "pseudoshashka" are as follows: 1. The blade is very curved, not typical for those Afghani swords. Likely remounted shamshir. 2. The slit is on the wrong side. Moreover, I have never seen slits in pseudoshashkas: their curvatures are not as pronounced. Mainly, they are seen on Ottoman kilijes. I am sure you have several of those, just try to unsheath them holding the sword horizontally but with the slit being above or below. See which position is more comfortable. 3. The handle is asymmetrically placed, in a typical "pseudoshashka" style. If my suspicion about the blade coming from a shamshir is correct, the tang should have been re-worked. I would x-ray the handle to look for any signs of it. 4. I am uneasy re. contour change in the middle of the scabbard. Looks as if it was re-formed and the modified area was covered by the suspension fitting. 5. Was the leather stitched in the Ottoman style: wire "springs"? Would be nice to see a close-up pic. Obviously, I am at a great disadvantage because of my inability to inspect the sword personally. But the owner can do it if he wishes and disabuse me of my suspicions. As I have already said, it is a beautiful and highly unusual pseudoshashka. The former is indisputable. The latter is what makes my antennae twitch.

28th October 2019, 08:12 PM	#7
mahratt Member Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Russia Posts: 1,042	Ariel, calm your antennae. This Afghan shashka, which you persistently call pseudoshashka (but it’s excusable, old people are usually very conservative), has no problems Sorry, but I don't care much about your "suspicions." And certainly not so much that I was in a hurry to “disabuse” you. Some of the forum participants who were visiting me in Moscow had the opportunity to carefully consider this shashka)))) And one moment. If you didn’t see something, then it only says that you didn’t see it and nothing more

29th October 2019, 04:08 AM	#9
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Kubur, I enlarged the pics of Mahratt's pseudoshashka. See. pic #6 from the top: typical Ottoman stitching and the fitting disturbed the seam mightily, to the point of tearing the wire stitches. I am more and more certain that the fitting was turned upside down to create a "shashka-like" appearance of the scabbard, and that the scabbard was originally Ottoman and not Afghani. Have you tried to play with one of your kilijes and unsheath the sword when the slit is on top or on the bottom? Would like to get your impression. As a matter of fact, other Forumites may try it too: the more opinions the better. We seem to have a fun exercise.