Shipping from Italy

[Green]

about a month ago i won a bid for a pair of kerisses of not v good quality but one had an ivory handle (which is the reason i bid for). I did not worry about this because ihave received quite a few keris from UK with ivory grip previously. but this time, the auction house declined to post to me. I then requested mailbox etc (which only a few months before sent a keris with ivory handle to me without any problem) but this time they refused. I found another one that is willing to apply for CITES certificate for my item and their initial quote for post + cites certificate process is around 235 pounds. The process is till ongoing and not completed yet. My winning bid was only 60 pounds. In conclusion i am basically screwed.

[Philip]

Ouch! Just curious, did the shipping firm itemize their price quote - CITES certificate fee, packing, shipping, insurance, their markup, etc? Once the paperwork is completed, what carrier will do the transport? ParcelForce, ccommercial courier, etc? I hope that with the certificate it can be delivered to you directly and not involve the services of a customs broker on your end to clear the importation which would result in additional fees.

I’ve had that experience when I bought an antique pistol from a London saleroom last year. Auction houses operate in a legal fishbowl and need to cross all their T’s and play by the rules all the way. My purchase had to go through a licensed freight forwarder ( and yes they had to show diligence re CITES to rule out ivory inlays) and because of the valuation on the invoice I needed a customs broker that cost me another $350 on my end plus the 400 quid that the UK shipper charged. Ridiculous, I thought, because all antiques enter the US duty free and there are no restrictions on flintlocks. But there was no way around this racket so just had to pay up and shuddup. Every country has different rules and though you said the value of your purchase was not that expensive, be sure that you check with your country’s customs office to verify what the formalities are for CITES affected material.

The only point I’m trying to make to all is that in this day and age of myriad rules governing arms and animal species, it helps to be fully cognizant if all the issues and costs connected with getting something from A to B before you bid in an overseas auction.

[MForde]

As a note for members, if anyone wins anything at auction near me (Wokingham, Berkshire, UK) I'd be happy to send it overseas to you. It's a long shot but thought I'd offer!

[Green]

Phillip;

The quotation given was an estimate by them and not itemized. But they did inform that for getting the CITES certificate alone, the cost is 90 pounds. I am waiting for the CITES process to be completed and wait for the actual invoice from them. To be fair, the auction house did offer to resell my won item in their future auction but I decided to apply for CITES certificate and keep my won item.

I am not exactly sure what the custom officers at my end will do, as I no experience receiving shipment with CITES certificate before although I have received numerous ivory hilted items in the past several years without any problem from them.

MForde:

Thank you very much, that is very kind of you to help us with shipment. I'll keep this in mind if I have problems . For sure we'll not request you to ship ivory materials unless we have proper documentation.

[Athanase]

Are there paints easily reversible?
To paint flintlock rifles with ivory inlay decoration or sheaths with some small, ivory-decorated parts?

For handles ivory in revenche I do not see how to hide them discreetly.

[vilhelmsson]

Hey guys, Not to gloat (too much), but I just had a box of swords arrive in California from Italy. It shipped FedEx International Economy on Wednesday, 10/9, and was delivered in California on Friday, 10/11, before 10 am.

However, a shipment earlier in the year from the same place with UPS had a 30 day FDA and Fish & Wildlife hold, and nothing biological inside.

So I think luck is a factor.

Also, please don't circumvent CITES. It invalidates provenance and encourages fakes.

[Philip]

Originally Posted by vilhelmsson

However, a shipment earlier in the year from the same place with UPS had a 30 day FDA and Fish & Wildlife hold, and nothing biological inside.

So I think luck is a factor.

Also, please don't circumvent CITES. It invalidates provenance and encourages fakes.

Yep, the feds can't inspect every parcel. But recent experiences show that the gamble isn't worth it. Call me paranoid, but it seems to me that offenders whose shipments get snagged are put on some short of S-list. A couple years ago, a dealer in the UK used to send me items for restoration, and every single shipment of his was received with Fish and Wildlife inspection tape. Fortunately I had informed him in advance of all this that I would not work on any item affected by CITES, permits or no. He must have landed on somebody/s radar screen because several packages in a row, containing all-metal Indian ethnographic weapons, was flagged and checked.

Getting caught trying to circumvent CITES, either on purpose or inadvertently, can have consequences beyond invalidation of provenance. Like confiscation and destruction. In the recent past, the Richard Wagner Jr collection in the US was liquidated, and a noted UK-based auctioneer was selected to handle disposal of this estate. The CITES-affected pieces were to be sold out of their San Francisco saleroom, the rest sent to London. About a dozen ivory hilted daggers were mistakenly shipped in the group destined for the UK. These were seized, the handles removed and destroyed, and the blades returned to the auctioneers for sale.

[Philip]

Originally Posted by Athanase

Are there paints easily reversible?
To paint flintlock rifles with ivory inlay decoration or sheaths with some small, ivory-decorated parts?

For handles ivory in revenche I do not see how to hide them discreetly.

Back in the 1990s, when CITES enforcement was not what it is now, some dealer colleagues from the UK used to come to US antique arms fairs to buy. As a favor I would handle shipping for them, and on ivory hilts we agreed on the use of automotive spray enamel in gloss or matte black, applied without a primer. It masked the color perfectly and was safely removable with mineral spirits --without a primer it did not adhere all that well, which of course made it vulnerable to a customs inspector with sharp fingernails. But the ruse worked.

I wouldn't have tried it on any surface that included wood, however. And now I wouldn't do it at all, because enforcement is tighter and the penalty, besides a fine, includes confiscation and destruction of the item (see the post I wrote above for a nasty example). The last time I did this was for an English gent who bought a nice ivory horse head shamshir at auction in the US and the seller refused to ship overseas. The blade was a piece of crap so my customer just said to yank and toss it, the hilt was what he was after. I stress the word LAST, I no longer accept any items for restoration that contain any CITES-affected material, not just ivory. It's just not worth it.

Please, fellas -- don't cheat. And keep up on the CITES regs, as re the scope of species involved. It isn't about just ivory, tortoise, rhino and beagle feathers anymore. A friend just reported that a shipment of Oriental weapons sent to him from overseas had one item yanked -- a sword with ray skin covered handle. The inspector demanded that he prove that the species of ray fish that the hilt was covered with was not one of the endangered ones! And keeping in mind that most Japanese swords have ray skin of one species or another under the silk wrapping, you can see where this could possibly lead. And it wasn't too long ago that the Gibson guitar factory was shut down for awhile until the feds verified the source of one lot of African ebony that luthiers use for fingerboards on the necks of instruments.