QAJAR "REVIVAL" SWORD for Comment

ariel · 8th October 2019, 11:10 PM

Kubur:
The hilt of this Qajar sword is not Indian, it is vice versa: Indian hilts of that configuration were modeled after Persian examples.
Indo-Persian culture was almost completely one-way street:from Persia to Moghuls and from them to the rest of India.

Jim,

I am with Marius. Of course, under certain “ conditions” these swords could have been used as weapons. But so did forks or candlesticks.
Revival swords were manufactured en masse as a propaganda tool, to instill a sense of pride in Iran’s Achaemenid past among the masses. Having inspired the needed emotion they were sold to tourists or suchlike.
In reality, at that time Iran was too impotent to engage in any kind of military adventure and was busily ( and rather inefficiently) trying to convert its anachronistic army into a European -like force. They were making ( and buying) European-style swords ( that were also virtually useless by the end of 19 century, but emphasized luxurious mustaches of their officers).

Kubur · 9th October 2019, 09:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

Kubur:
The hilt of this Qajar sword is not Indian, it is vice versa: Indian hilts of that configuration were modeled after Persian examples.
Indo-Persian culture was almost completely one-way street:from Persia to Moghuls and from them to the rest of India.

I agree with you Ariel, of course.
I think that most - if not all- the forum members know about Indo Persian relations. These are very well established facts.
I confirm what I wrote: this hilt is very basic and it might be Indian 19th c or very - very - late Persian early 20th c.

Jim McDougall · 9th October 2019, 01:32 PM

Thank you Ariel for this extremely well honed insight into the 'climate' in which these ceremonial type swords were used in these performance events. I had often heard of these referred to as 'passion plays' , but never fully understood the manner in which these weapons were used (as well illustrated by Dima), nor the political circumstances of Iran during these times described as you have explained.

Actually I was not disagreeing with what Marius said, simply the way he said it. Ironically, by analogy, his comment ('how would you know?)personally directed toward the observation by Mforde pretty much proved my point, that even a blunt instrument(weapon, or comment) can produce potentially harmful result. As I was pointing out, and in accord with your comment on the use of virtually many objects as weapons of opportunity, even a combatively inert weapon could well be used 'in the moment'. While I am sure Marius probably did not mean the words to come across the way I perceived, the initial effect seemed pertinent.

I think Mforde's riposte well qualifies his observation, and elaborates on the most obvious condition in discussing this interesting sword, that each item in this category must be evaluated on its own merits. Naturally hands on examination provides the necessary character and facts typically denied by photos unless highly detailed closeups, but here we can offer only assessments presumed without such physical examination.

Thank you Ibrahiim for the additional insights into the Sudanese thuluth covered weapons which I had mentioned in analogy. These weapons have certain parallels to the sword pictured in the OP in that they are covered in similar calligraphic script, and are often debated as to whether they were actually used in combat.
As I had mentioned, while many of these kaskara were indeed blunt and likely used by certain key individuals in the field in as yet unclear manner, I have seen examples with sharply honed and flexible blades which certainly could have been combatively used. The accounts describing these found strewn on the battlefield among other weapons suggests they may well have been.

Again, this mention of the Sudanese swords is intended only as an analogy toward the use of ceremonial or symbolically imbued weapons in an actual combative situation.

ariel · 10th October 2019, 06:55 PM

Jim,
I think Marius did not mean anything objectionable. Likely, it was a grammar issue. In Russian and Hebrew conversational languages, for example, both innocuous and aggressive inquiries routinely use “you” as the address instead of a passive form or faceless “we”. English, on the other hand, is very persnickety in this regard.
Have no idea how it is in his native tongue, but I would not hold it against him in this case.

My 5 cents.

As to the Revival swords, I personally do not like them at all. Far too theatrical to my taste. Never had one, never will.

mariusgmioc · 11th October 2019, 07:04 AM

I think, I may not have expressed clear enough what I wanted to say.

Unless YOU test the sword in similar conditions to those of real battle (or very close to those conditions) YOU cannot know if it is good or not. And when I say "YOU" I do not mean, you Jim, or you MForde, but "you" in general.

All steel has a deformation threshold from where elastic deformation stops and breakage or plastic deformation occurs, and for a steel of unknown composition this threshold can only be determined by testing.

So, the blade can look and feel strong and elastic and you can bend it 5 degrees without any bad effects. But, then if you bend it just one degree more, it breaks, or much more often, becomes permanently bent.

The Qajar revival blades were not thermally treated and were made of low carbon content steels, so are nothing but purely decorative weapons.

It is something completely different from battle ready blades that have decorations applied later.

PS: These "swords" are not even mentioned in "Arms and Armor from Iran" by Mr. Manouchehr Moshtagh Khorasani which is the most comprehensive book on Persian weapons... as they are not real weapons but decorations.

mahratt · 11th October 2019, 08:27 AM

Marius, I agree with you.
But in rare cases, there are exceptions. For example, when the blades of the Qajar revival blades are made of wootz steel (like this one of my sword).
But, of course, with respect to most of the richly decorated Qajar revival blades you are right.

mariusgmioc · 11th October 2019, 01:21 PM

Every rule has some exceptions, and yes, there might be very rare examples of functional Qajar revival blades.

And yes, a wootz blade would definitely qualify for being such an exception but...

... how do you know it is a Qajar revival blade, and not an older, battle-ready blade, remounted and decorated at a later period?

9th October 2019, 01:32 PM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,934	Thank you Ariel for this extremely well honed insight into the 'climate' in which these ceremonial type swords were used in these performance events. I had often heard of these referred to as 'passion plays' , but never fully understood the manner in which these weapons were used (as well illustrated by Dima), nor the political circumstances of Iran during these times described as you have explained. Actually I was not disagreeing with what Marius said, simply the way he said it. Ironically, by analogy, his comment ('how would you know?)personally directed toward the observation by Mforde pretty much proved my point, that even a blunt instrument(weapon, or comment) can produce potentially harmful result. As I was pointing out, and in accord with your comment on the use of virtually many objects as weapons of opportunity, even a combatively inert weapon could well be used 'in the moment'. While I am sure Marius probably did not mean the words to come across the way I perceived, the initial effect seemed pertinent. I think Mforde's riposte well qualifies his observation, and elaborates on the most obvious condition in discussing this interesting sword, that each item in this category must be evaluated on its own merits. Naturally hands on examination provides the necessary character and facts typically denied by photos unless highly detailed closeups, but here we can offer only assessments presumed without such physical examination. Thank you Ibrahiim for the additional insights into the Sudanese thuluth covered weapons which I had mentioned in analogy. These weapons have certain parallels to the sword pictured in the OP in that they are covered in similar calligraphic script, and are often debated as to whether they were actually used in combat. As I had mentioned, while many of these kaskara were indeed blunt and likely used by certain key individuals in the field in as yet unclear manner, I have seen examples with sharply honed and flexible blades which certainly could have been combatively used. The accounts describing these found strewn on the battlefield among other weapons suggests they may well have been. Again, this mention of the Sudanese swords is intended only as an analogy toward the use of ceremonial or symbolically imbued weapons in an actual combative situation. Last edited by Jim McDougall; 9th October 2019 at 02:38 PM.

11th October 2019, 07:04 AM	#5
mariusgmioc Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: Austria Posts: 1,903	I think, I may not have expressed clear enough what I wanted to say. Unless YOU test the sword in similar conditions to those of real battle (or very close to those conditions) YOU cannot know if it is good or not. And when I say "YOU" I do not mean, you Jim, or you MForde, but "you" in general. All steel has a deformation threshold from where elastic deformation stops and breakage or plastic deformation occurs, and for a steel of unknown composition this threshold can only be determined by testing. So, the blade can look and feel strong and elastic and you can bend it 5 degrees without any bad effects. But, then if you bend it just one degree more, it breaks, or much more often, becomes permanently bent. The Qajar revival blades were not thermally treated and were made of low carbon content steels, so are nothing but purely decorative weapons. It is something completely different from battle ready blades that have decorations applied later. PS: These "swords" are not even mentioned in "Arms and Armor from Iran" by Mr. Manouchehr Moshtagh Khorasani which is the most comprehensive book on Persian weapons... as they are not real weapons but decorations. Last edited by mariusgmioc; 11th October 2019 at 08:22 AM.

11th October 2019, 08:27 AM	#6
mahratt Member Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Russia Posts: 1,042	Marius, I agree with you. But in rare cases, there are exceptions. For example, when the blades of the Qajar revival blades are made of wootz steel (like this one of my sword). But, of course, with respect to most of the richly decorated Qajar revival blades you are right. Attached Images

8th October 2019, 11:10 PM	#1
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Kubur: The hilt of this Qajar sword is not Indian, it is vice versa: Indian hilts of that configuration were modeled after Persian examples. Indo-Persian culture was almost completely one-way street:from Persia to Moghuls and from them to the rest of India. Jim, I am with Marius. Of course, under certain “ conditions” these swords could have been used as weapons. But so did forks or candlesticks. Revival swords were manufactured en masse as a propaganda tool, to instill a sense of pride in Iran’s Achaemenid past among the masses. Having inspired the needed emotion they were sold to tourists or suchlike. In reality, at that time Iran was too impotent to engage in any kind of military adventure and was busily ( and rather inefficiently) trying to convert its anachronistic army into a European -like force. They were making ( and buying) European-style swords ( that were also virtually useless by the end of 19 century, but emphasized luxurious mustaches of their officers).

10th October 2019, 06:55 PM	#4
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Jim, I think Marius did not mean anything objectionable. Likely, it was a grammar issue. In Russian and Hebrew conversational languages, for example, both innocuous and aggressive inquiries routinely use “you” as the address instead of a passive form or faceless “we”. English, on the other hand, is very persnickety in this regard. Have no idea how it is in his native tongue, but I would not hold it against him in this case. My 5 cents. As to the Revival swords, I personally do not like them at all. Far too theatrical to my taste. Never had one, never will.

11th October 2019, 01:21 PM	#7
mariusgmioc Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: Austria Posts: 1,903	Every rule has some exceptions, and yes, there might be very rare examples of functional Qajar revival blades. And yes, a wootz blade would definitely qualify for being such an exception but... ... how do you know it is a Qajar revival blade, and not an older, battle-ready blade, remounted and decorated at a later period?