QAJAR "REVIVAL" SWORD for Comment

MForde · 8th October 2019, 12:20 PM

I have one of these next to my desk as I type as I'm selling it for a friend and I must agree - there's no reason why the blade wouldn't be acceptable in combat, given the correct sharpening.

mariusgmioc · 8th October 2019, 02:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MForde

I have one of these next to my desk as I type as I'm selling it for a friend and I must agree - there's no reason why the blade wouldn't be acceptable in combat, given the correct sharpening.

How would you know?!

Unless you really test the blade simulating real use conditions, you cannot get even a close guess. What may appear like a reasonably elastic blade can shatter like glass or bend like clay in real use conditions.

Jim McDougall · 8th October 2019, 04:02 PM

Excellent and interesting perspective on these Qajar items and these ceremonial events Dima! I have often wondered more on these 'revival' pieces and how they were used.

It is interesting how these heavily etched blades very much resemble the well known thuluth examples from Sudan in the Mahdist period of end of 19th c.
It has often been argued whether these highly decorated blades were actually used combatively, or simply as symbols of authority for chiefs or leaders. Some consider them as carried by the warriors in an almost votive manner as symbolizing the 'sword of the Mahdi'.
However, I have seen examples of these thuluth kaskara which were sharpened and would certainly have been usable in combat.

While these Qajar swords were made clearly for ceremonial use, like many weapons in such context, it is possible they might be used in a 'situation' as a weapon, even if blunt force trauma were the outcome of their use.
In the American Civil War, one of the chief problems with the use of the sword was that the soldiers failed to sharpen their blades.

An observation regarding possible use of weapons of course cannot always be entirely accurate in these kinds of discussions, but hypothetical comments cannot always be discounted. Obviously hands on examination would better lend to outcome one way or another, much like evaluating and assessing weapons shown on these pages from photos only.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 8th October 2019, 05:15 PM

Reference;
A. https://www.academia.edu/36217967/Su..._Mahdist_Sudan

Quote"Decorations & Calligraphy.

Many Sudanese swords blades were covered with calligraphic inscriptions, either real or pseudo-inscriptions (Fig. 3). Sometimes these inscriptions are connected to symbolic dates such as 1718 or animals such as the snake and the dragon. The Arabic calligraphy etched in the blade was typical ‘thuluth’ script. Thuluth is a script version of calligraphy invented by the Persian ofﬁcial ibn Muqlah Shirazi. Most often they were religious inscriptions from the Qur’an, but also these weapons wear the names of places of production like Omdurman and manufacturing dates. This type of decoration was also used on other Sudanese weapons including dervish axes and daggers. These calligraphic ornamentations will have been placed to serve a purpose. It is clear that the verses of the Qur’an, Arabic and the writing act in general as magical and symbolic elements. Calligraphy is present as a motif rather than as actual writing. Its main function is talismanic; sometimes lucky-charms or gris-gris are also attached to the handle of the weapon." Unquote.

kahnjar1 · 8th October 2019, 08:41 PM

Thank you for the comments. I fully expected that this sword was probably used primarily in a ceremonial roll, but I have no doubt that given the right circumstances it could also be used as a true weapon. As I mentioned, the blade is quite sharp (no sign of resharpening), and flexible.

Kubur · 8th October 2019, 10:07 PM

It might be Indian as well, the hilt is not typical from these Persian swords.
Clearly very end of the 19th if not very early 20th c. 1880-1914
They were also used for Persian theater Tazieh as mentionned by Mahrat.

ariel · 8th October 2019, 11:10 PM

Kubur:
The hilt of this Qajar sword is not Indian, it is vice versa: Indian hilts of that configuration were modeled after Persian examples.
Indo-Persian culture was almost completely one-way street:from Persia to Moghuls and from them to the rest of India.

Jim,

I am with Marius. Of course, under certain “ conditions” these swords could have been used as weapons. But so did forks or candlesticks.
Revival swords were manufactured en masse as a propaganda tool, to instill a sense of pride in Iran’s Achaemenid past among the masses. Having inspired the needed emotion they were sold to tourists or suchlike.
In reality, at that time Iran was too impotent to engage in any kind of military adventure and was busily ( and rather inefficiently) trying to convert its anachronistic army into a European -like force. They were making ( and buying) European-style swords ( that were also virtually useless by the end of 19 century, but emphasized luxurious mustaches of their officers).

MForde · 9th October 2019, 01:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mariusgmioc

How would you know?!

Unless you really test the blade simulating real use conditions, you cannot get even a close guess. What may appear like a reasonably elastic blade can shatter like glass or bend like clay in real use conditions.

I admit to some employing degree of presumption but I feel it's justified. The sword I have here feels robust and flexible and similar in the hand to those of proven fighting sword patterns. Of course, as you say, one never truly knows what hidden secrets a blade holds until it's actually used but we can't very well go around hitting people or armour with all our swords to test each one, only being allowed to extoll their virtues after rough use. Also, these 'Revival' swords are sometimes described as having ceremonial-only blades, and perhaps some do, but it's a sentiment I felt important to mitigate.

8th October 2019, 10:07 PM	#6
Kubur Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 2,145	It might be Indian as well, the hilt is not typical from these Persian swords. Clearly very end of the 19th if not very early 20th c. 1880-1914 They were also used for Persian theater Tazieh as mentionned by Mahrat. Attached Images

8th October 2019, 12:20 PM	#1
MForde Member Join Date: Apr 2018 Location: UK Posts: 36	I have one of these next to my desk as I type as I'm selling it for a friend and I must agree - there's no reason why the blade wouldn't be acceptable in combat, given the correct sharpening.

8th October 2019, 04:02 PM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,281	Excellent and interesting perspective on these Qajar items and these ceremonial events Dima! I have often wondered more on these 'revival' pieces and how they were used. It is interesting how these heavily etched blades very much resemble the well known thuluth examples from Sudan in the Mahdist period of end of 19th c. It has often been argued whether these highly decorated blades were actually used combatively, or simply as symbols of authority for chiefs or leaders. Some consider them as carried by the warriors in an almost votive manner as symbolizing the 'sword of the Mahdi'. However, I have seen examples of these thuluth kaskara which were sharpened and would certainly have been usable in combat. While these Qajar swords were made clearly for ceremonial use, like many weapons in such context, it is possible they might be used in a 'situation' as a weapon, even if blunt force trauma were the outcome of their use. In the American Civil War, one of the chief problems with the use of the sword was that the soldiers failed to sharpen their blades. An observation regarding possible use of weapons of course cannot always be entirely accurate in these kinds of discussions, but hypothetical comments cannot always be discounted. Obviously hands on examination would better lend to outcome one way or another, much like evaluating and assessing weapons shown on these pages from photos only.

8th October 2019, 05:15 PM	#4
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	Reference; A. https://www.academia.edu/36217967/Su..._Mahdist_Sudan Quote"Decorations & Calligraphy. Many Sudanese swords blades were covered with calligraphic inscriptions, either real or pseudo-inscriptions (Fig. 3). Sometimes these inscriptions are connected to symbolic dates such as 1718 or animals such as the snake and the dragon. The Arabic calligraphy etched in the blade was typical ‘thuluth’ script. Thuluth is a script version of calligraphy invented by the Persian ofﬁcial ibn Muqlah Shirazi. Most often they were religious inscriptions from the Qur’an, but also these weapons wear the names of places of production like Omdurman and manufacturing dates. This type of decoration was also used on other Sudanese weapons including dervish axes and daggers. These calligraphic ornamentations will have been placed to serve a purpose. It is clear that the verses of the Qur’an, Arabic and the writing act in general as magical and symbolic elements. Calligraphy is present as a motif rather than as actual writing. Its main function is talismanic; sometimes lucky-charms or gris-gris are also attached to the handle of the weapon." Unquote.

8th October 2019, 08:41 PM	#5
kahnjar1 Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: CHRISTCHURCH NEW ZEALAND Posts: 2,789	Thank you for the comments. I fully expected that this sword was probably used primarily in a ceremonial roll, but I have no doubt that given the right circumstances it could also be used as a true weapon. As I mentioned, the blade is quite sharp (no sign of resharpening), and flexible.

8th October 2019, 11:10 PM	#7
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Kubur: The hilt of this Qajar sword is not Indian, it is vice versa: Indian hilts of that configuration were modeled after Persian examples. Indo-Persian culture was almost completely one-way street:from Persia to Moghuls and from them to the rest of India. Jim, I am with Marius. Of course, under certain “ conditions” these swords could have been used as weapons. But so did forks or candlesticks. Revival swords were manufactured en masse as a propaganda tool, to instill a sense of pride in Iran’s Achaemenid past among the masses. Having inspired the needed emotion they were sold to tourists or suchlike. In reality, at that time Iran was too impotent to engage in any kind of military adventure and was busily ( and rather inefficiently) trying to convert its anachronistic army into a European -like force. They were making ( and buying) European-style swords ( that were also virtually useless by the end of 19 century, but emphasized luxurious mustaches of their officers).