3 Pulwars

mariusgmioc · 6th October 2019, 06:23 PM

Hello gentlemen,

I would like to make a few observations.

Blades made of layers of steel are correctly called "laminated" and by no meaning, "damascus."

Longitudinal cracks in the spine are signs of "delamination" and they are by no means indication of wootz. These cracks just indicate that the blade was laminated.

When the layers of steel and the finishing of the blade are made so that the layered structure is deliberately revealed, it is called "pattern welded steel" and colloquially "pattern welded damascus" or simply "damascus."

Regarding the blades in the original thread, in my opinion, based solely on the photos, it would be impossible to assert their origin. Even with them in hand, I believe it would be difficult to say whether the blade is of Indian origin or locally made Afghan.

It is true that Northern India was housing several centres that were mass producing and trading blades, but blades were also made in Afghanistan and they bore very similar characteristics to the Indian blades.

mahratt · 6th October 2019, 06:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mariusgmioc

Regarding the blades in the original thread, in my opinion, based solely on the photos, it would be impossible to assert their origin. Even with them in hand, I believe it would be difficult to say whether the blade is of Indian origin or locally made Afghan.

It is true that Northern India was housing several centres that were mass producing and trading blades, but blades were also made in Afghanistan and they bore very similar characteristics to the Indian blades.

Hi Marius. You're absolutely right. That is why I wrote before

Quote:

Originally Posted by mahratt

blades may be of local origin

It is impossible to say for sure whether these blades were made in India or Afghanistan.

ariel · 7th October 2019, 03:00 AM

Andreas,

There are many problems with Afghan weapons.
First, virtually all Afghan pulwars we encounter date back to the 19 century. As such, we lack good signs of any potential evolution . We just do not know how they looked in the 17 or 18, if they indeed changed at all.

Second, swords consist of 2 parts: handle and blade, and those could have been mixed and matched several times during the working life of the sword.

Third, the origin of pulwar handle is apparently mixed: they took the general concept of a Tulwar handle, but there is a twist. Most likely, they took as an inspiration Indian handle from the 16 century or earlier that was shown in the Hamzanameh: cup like pommel without a lid. You can find the only living example in “ Hindu arms and ritual” by Elgood. It is shown there in the chapter about 4 important sword, and belongs to Brian Isaac. Almost certainly, this idea came from South India, and we can see it in N. Sumatran Piso Podang.Then they added a lid to the cup. Also, the quillons came from Persian tradition. And at the end they made it all iron. Rather mad olio, isn’t it? Jens in his book shows a Tulwar with brass handle of NW India ( ??) or even Afghanistan without a lid ( pp.321-3) . I have a much more “Afghani” looking brass handle dating likely to 17 century. But it is very difficult to build a case on so few examples.

Fourth, NW India retained the “ Hamzanameh” - like idea, but the cup became more shallow. I have two of those. In the rest of the country the pommel became flat.

Fifth, the blade. Some came from Persia, and they were usually wootz.
The rest by and large had “ Indian ricasso”, so by default we are forced to suspect their Indian origin or an Afghani imitation of an Indian original. There are very few features allowing us to suggest true Afghani origin: they tend to be more narrow and thick. Perhaps, the only one that is a better indicator, is their system of fullers. Afghani blades tend to have a horizontal segment close to the handle giving the fullers a box-like appearance. Also, they very often have several very thin fullers of different lengths close to the spine, and those are interrupted by almost triangular flat panels.

Lastly, let’s not forget that a large population of Pashtuns live in what currently is Pakistan ( formerly colonial India). Thus, the question whether a particular sword is Afghani proper or NW Indian acquires political dimensions.

Now, after all those equivocations, do you really want a yes or no answer?:-)

I would like to thank Brian Isaac and Jens Nordlunde for many years of insights and suggestions and for teaching me the fine points of analysis. They were beyond helpful.

Battara · 7th October 2019, 03:49 AM

Although not my area of expertise, I do want to point out the possibility of the 3rd pulwar blade (bottom of picture) having a scarf weld. The geometry of the curve is "broken" in the middle and a polish and etch might show this.

mariusgmioc · 7th October 2019, 07:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Battara

Although not my area of expertise, I do want to point out the possibility of the 3rd pulwar blade (bottom of picture) having a scarf weld. The geometry of the curve is "broken" in the middle and a polish and etch might show this.

Hello Battara,

That is a sign the blade was badly bent there, then straightened up.

AHorsa · 9th October 2019, 02:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Battara

Although not my area of expertise, I do want to point out the possibility of the 3rd pulwar blade (bottom of picture) having a scarf weld. The geometry of the curve is "broken" in the middle and a polish and etch might show this.

It is definitely no welding. The direction of that "curve" is also quite strange for beeing bent, but indeed in this area there is a bend in horizontal direction....

Jim McDougall · 9th October 2019, 02:49 PM

What Jose has astutely noted, the anomaly in the curvature of the blade on the example #3 is most interesting, and I had not noticed it. It does seem to have the appearance of a scarf weld. I have seen this on blades and honestly could not understand the viability of such repair, would the blade still have its effective integrity?

I have also heard of straight blades being worked into curved, but this seems a lot of work.

The blade on this paluaor seems to have the typical radius of a shamshir blade and overall character. Could it have been bent and straightened? Not sure whether scarf weld or straightened, but some repair at center of blade seems evident.

ariel · 9th October 2019, 03:06 PM

A bit of polishing and etching is likely to give an answer.
Without it the cows will never come home:-)

7th October 2019, 03:49 AM	#4
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,280	Although not my area of expertise, I do want to point out the possibility of the 3rd pulwar blade (bottom of picture) having a scarf weld. The geometry of the curve is "broken" in the middle and a polish and etch might show this. Attached Images

6th October 2019, 06:23 PM	#1
mariusgmioc Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: Austria Posts: 1,911	Hello gentlemen, I would like to make a few observations. Blades made of layers of steel are correctly called "laminated" and by no meaning, "damascus." Longitudinal cracks in the spine are signs of "delamination" and they are by no means indication of wootz. These cracks just indicate that the blade was laminated. When the layers of steel and the finishing of the blade are made so that the layered structure is deliberately revealed, it is called "pattern welded steel" and colloquially "pattern welded damascus" or simply "damascus." Regarding the blades in the original thread, in my opinion, based solely on the photos, it would be impossible to assert their origin. Even with them in hand, I believe it would be difficult to say whether the blade is of Indian origin or locally made Afghan. It is true that Northern India was housing several centres that were mass producing and trading blades, but blades were also made in Afghanistan and they bore very similar characteristics to the Indian blades.

7th October 2019, 03:00 AM	#3
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Andreas, There are many problems with Afghan weapons. First, virtually all Afghan pulwars we encounter date back to the 19 century. As such, we lack good signs of any potential evolution . We just do not know how they looked in the 17 or 18, if they indeed changed at all. Second, swords consist of 2 parts: handle and blade, and those could have been mixed and matched several times during the working life of the sword. Third, the origin of pulwar handle is apparently mixed: they took the general concept of a Tulwar handle, but there is a twist. Most likely, they took as an inspiration Indian handle from the 16 century or earlier that was shown in the Hamzanameh: cup like pommel without a lid. You can find the only living example in “ Hindu arms and ritual” by Elgood. It is shown there in the chapter about 4 important sword, and belongs to Brian Isaac. Almost certainly, this idea came from South India, and we can see it in N. Sumatran Piso Podang.Then they added a lid to the cup. Also, the quillons came from Persian tradition. And at the end they made it all iron. Rather mad olio, isn’t it? Jens in his book shows a Tulwar with brass handle of NW India ( ??) or even Afghanistan without a lid ( pp.321-3) . I have a much more “Afghani” looking brass handle dating likely to 17 century. But it is very difficult to build a case on so few examples. Fourth, NW India retained the “ Hamzanameh” - like idea, but the cup became more shallow. I have two of those. In the rest of the country the pommel became flat. Fifth, the blade. Some came from Persia, and they were usually wootz. The rest by and large had “ Indian ricasso”, so by default we are forced to suspect their Indian origin or an Afghani imitation of an Indian original. There are very few features allowing us to suggest true Afghani origin: they tend to be more narrow and thick. Perhaps, the only one that is a better indicator, is their system of fullers. Afghani blades tend to have a horizontal segment close to the handle giving the fullers a box-like appearance. Also, they very often have several very thin fullers of different lengths close to the spine, and those are interrupted by almost triangular flat panels. Lastly, let’s not forget that a large population of Pashtuns live in what currently is Pakistan ( formerly colonial India). Thus, the question whether a particular sword is Afghani proper or NW Indian acquires political dimensions. Now, after all those equivocations, do you really want a yes or no answer?:-) I would like to thank Brian Isaac and Jens Nordlunde for many years of insights and suggestions and for teaching me the fine points of analysis. They were beyond helpful.

9th October 2019, 02:49 PM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,278	What Jose has astutely noted, the anomaly in the curvature of the blade on the example #3 is most interesting, and I had not noticed it. It does seem to have the appearance of a scarf weld. I have seen this on blades and honestly could not understand the viability of such repair, would the blade still have its effective integrity? I have also heard of straight blades being worked into curved, but this seems a lot of work. The blade on this paluaor seems to have the typical radius of a shamshir blade and overall character. Could it have been bent and straightened? Not sure whether scarf weld or straightened, but some repair at center of blade seems evident.

9th October 2019, 03:06 PM	#8
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	A bit of polishing and etching is likely to give an answer. Without it the cows will never come home:-)