Whoa ! Moro

VANDOO · 30th April 2006, 04:57 PM

KNOWLEGABLE COLLECTORS AND ART COLLECTORS WHO DO IT FOR INVESTMENT OR TO IMPRESS PEOPLE ARE WORLDS APART. WHEN YOU SEE THE WORDS GALLERY, SOUTHBYS, OR CHRISTIES THE MAIN TARGET BUYERS GROUPS ARE THOSE WITH LOTS OF MONEY WHO WILL LISTEN TO WHAT THEY SAY A ITEM IS WORTH AND WHAT THEY PROJECT IT WILL BE WORTH SHORTLY AS A INVESTMENT. SO IT IS NOT UNUSUAL FOR SOMETHING TO SELL FOR MUCH MORE THAN WE WOULD PAY AS THEY HAVE SEEN THAT IT IS USUALLY APRAISED AT MORE THAN THEY END UP PAYING AND THEY HAVE BEEN TOLD HOW FAST THE PRICE IS RISING AND THAT IT IS A GREAT INVESTMENT INCREASING FASTER THAN GOLD, STOCKS OR ANY OTHER INVESTMENTS. IT WILL ALWAYS CONTINUE TO INCREASE BECAUSE THEY ARE NOT MAKEING ANY MORE AND THE TRIBES WILL SOON BE GONE FOREVER.

IT IS UNFORTUNATE THAT MANY OF THESE COLLECTOR/INVESTORS CARE MUCH MORE ABOUT THE FACT IT SOLD AT SOUTHBYS OR CHRISTIES ECT. AND THAT THEY THINK IT WILL MAKE THEM LOADS OF MONEY THAN THEY DO ABOUT THE OBJECTS THEY BUY. THE BUG THAT EATS THEM IS MONEY NOT THE DESIRE TO HAVE , STUDY AND PRESERVE A UNIQUE ARTEFACT OF ANOTHER TIME AND PEOPLE AS IT IS WITH US. A GOOD THING IS SOME INVESTORS MAY GET BITTEN BY THE BUG THAT BIT US ALL IN THE PROCESS AND WHEN THAT HAPPENS AND THEY GET THE KNOWLEGE AND CONECTIONS, OFTEN A TRULY GREAT COLLECTION COMES TOGETHER. WITH KNOWLEGE AND PLENTY OF CASH TO BUY ANYTHING YOU WANT YOU CAN PUT A COLLECTION TOGETHER THAT HAS ONLY THE BEST EXAMPLES. (I CAN ONLY DREAM

)

IT IS VEXING TO SEE PRICES DRIVEN UP ON WHAT WE LOVE ESPECIALLY WHEN A DAMAGED ITEM BRINGS A PRICE THAT WOULD HAVE ONLY BEEN APPROPRIATE OR HIGH FOR ONE IN PERFECT CONDITION. BUT SNAKE OIL SALESMEN THESE DAYS ARE NEVER SATISFIED WITH THEIR GAINS NO MATTER WHAT PERCENT OF PROFIT THEY ARE MAKEING THEY ALWAYS WANT TO PUSH IT HIGHER.

ariel · 30th April 2006, 07:31 PM

These comments beg for a general question:
Is it appropriate and desirable to perform extensive repair on the antiques that were damaged by age, use and (inevitably, as they are instruments of war) abuse?
I am not trying to argue one way or another, but just want your opinions:
if you get a great sword with a noticeably damaged handle and the damage is also obviously old, would you repair the damage to make it invisible even though the repair negates the history and the experience of the sword? Is it permissible to perform an extensive (and often expensive) cosmetic surgery on a weapon not in order to restore it's needed function but to superficially return it to the pristine state? Even more, would you further enhance the appearance, such as silver-cladding the handle, or attaching a junggayan handle to a great blade with an original but ordinary one?
I am not talking about actual users who put a new handle on a sword to take it to battle (that goes without saying!) but about collectors who want to have a virginally- perfect sword on the wall.

Rick · 30th April 2006, 08:14 PM

Hi Ariel , just my opinion but I think this can be quite a subjective question .

In the case of the krisses under discussion I'm led to ask myself "What would the original owner do ?" ; in most cases I think that if the sword in its native environment was damaged to the point of the ivory pommel piece in question that either a repair , replacement or modification would be done . I would also think the same would apply to the kris without a pommel .

Now this may be unique to the world of keris and kris ; but the heart and soul of these weapons is the blade regardless of Indo/Malay or Moro origin .
In these cultures dress was and is replaced regularly as it aged or was damaged ; not to do so was considered disrespectful to the keris/kris itself .
Often hilts would be removed and sold if the owner hit hard times ; then a less expensive hilt would be used .
Now when these pieces wind up in Western hands *in my opinion* providing a quality repair or replacement can be done if it is in keeping with the culture .

When it comes down to it the blade is the heart and soul of the keris/kris and is deserving of honor regardless of the culture it winds up in .

Tim Simmons · 30th April 2006, 08:42 PM

I think ariel touches on a very good point. What is restoration? Old damage can be seen as part of the objects life and may in some rare occasions add value. Repair to recent damage is problematic how far do you go? This piece presented a dilemma for me. It arrived with some damage then to rub salt into the wound I dropped it again, anyway a big chunk was missing, the damage was done!
Do I leave it looking damaged and ugly or do something about it. I hope I have taken a middle road, what I have done is no worse than the damage. I have only hinted at how it would have been, I could very easily fake it up a lot more, I shall not say how. I am hoping to the future owners, the repair will also be older, will see it just as an honest attempt to keep a lovely thing looking nice and still feel good in the hand. I have others with the same kind of damage that is old and for some reason looks so very different and acceptable.

BluErf · 30th April 2006, 10:29 PM

For me, I feel that as long as the repair/replacement follows the traditional style of where the piece comes from, it is fine. This often entails the engagement of craftsmen who are from that culture.

BluErf · 30th April 2006, 10:32 PM

Hey Tim, that's a great repair. Maybe you want to stain the wood to match the original wood colour? Don't worry, people would still be able to see that it was repaired.

Battara · 2nd May 2006, 01:55 AM

Ok folks, here I go (by request).

I was one of the bidders for these puppies but dropped out. I was thinking of restoring them. I do agree that the money paid is toooooo much (though I haven't got that much anyway). I was looking at repairing the way Ian had suggested. Yes, pre-ban ivory is exensive, but for the money I was willing to spend (half of what was paid?) it would have evened out (especially after selling the other one). Who ever got it will be paying more than it is worth now (especially if any restoration is done). The hardest part would be matching the grain, and that can not be done perfectly anyway. Yes some trim to the original, or certainly there will be a break line no matter what. I can live with that if it were not too obvious. I will never know now.......

The other one - new head and new wrap. (silver for me

).

30th April 2006, 07:31 PM	#2
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	These comments beg for a general question: Is it appropriate and desirable to perform extensive repair on the antiques that were damaged by age, use and (inevitably, as they are instruments of war) abuse? I am not trying to argue one way or another, but just want your opinions: if you get a great sword with a noticeably damaged handle and the damage is also obviously old, would you repair the damage to make it invisible even though the repair negates the history and the experience of the sword? Is it permissible to perform an extensive (and often expensive) cosmetic surgery on a weapon not in order to restore it's needed function but to superficially return it to the pristine state? Even more, would you further enhance the appearance, such as silver-cladding the handle, or attaching a junggayan handle to a great blade with an original but ordinary one? I am not talking about actual users who put a new handle on a sword to take it to battle (that goes without saying!) but about collectors who want to have a virginally- perfect sword on the wall. Last edited by ariel; 30th April 2006 at 08:37 PM.

30th April 2006, 08:14 PM	#3
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,339	The Opinion of a Kris/Keris Collector Hi Ariel , just my opinion but I think this can be quite a subjective question . In the case of the krisses under discussion I'm led to ask myself "What would the original owner do ?" ; in most cases I think that if the sword in its native environment was damaged to the point of the ivory pommel piece in question that either a repair , replacement or modification would be done . I would also think the same would apply to the kris without a pommel . Now this may be unique to the world of keris and kris ; but the heart and soul of these weapons is the blade regardless of Indo/Malay or Moro origin . In these cultures dress was and is replaced regularly as it aged or was damaged ; not to do so was considered disrespectful to the keris/kris itself . Often hilts would be removed and sold if the owner hit hard times ; then a less expensive hilt would be used . Now when these pieces wind up in Western hands in my opinion providing a quality repair or replacement can be done if it is in keeping with the culture . When it comes down to it the blade is the heart and soul of the keris/kris and is deserving of honor regardless of the culture it winds up in .

30th April 2006, 08:42 PM	#4
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,855	I think ariel touches on a very good point. What is restoration? Old damage can be seen as part of the objects life and may in some rare occasions add value. Repair to recent damage is problematic how far do you go? This piece presented a dilemma for me. It arrived with some damage then to rub salt into the wound I dropped it again, anyway a big chunk was missing, the damage was done! Do I leave it looking damaged and ugly or do something about it. I hope I have taken a middle road, what I have done is no worse than the damage. I have only hinted at how it would have been, I could very easily fake it up a lot more, I shall not say how. I am hoping to the future owners, the repair will also be older, will see it just as an honest attempt to keep a lovely thing looking nice and still feel good in the hand. I have others with the same kind of damage that is old and for some reason looks so very different and acceptable. Attached Images

30th April 2006, 04:57 PM	#1
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	KNOWLEGABLE COLLECTORS AND ART COLLECTORS WHO DO IT FOR INVESTMENT OR TO IMPRESS PEOPLE ARE WORLDS APART. WHEN YOU SEE THE WORDS GALLERY, SOUTHBYS, OR CHRISTIES THE MAIN TARGET BUYERS GROUPS ARE THOSE WITH LOTS OF MONEY WHO WILL LISTEN TO WHAT THEY SAY A ITEM IS WORTH AND WHAT THEY PROJECT IT WILL BE WORTH SHORTLY AS A INVESTMENT. SO IT IS NOT UNUSUAL FOR SOMETHING TO SELL FOR MUCH MORE THAN WE WOULD PAY AS THEY HAVE SEEN THAT IT IS USUALLY APRAISED AT MORE THAN THEY END UP PAYING AND THEY HAVE BEEN TOLD HOW FAST THE PRICE IS RISING AND THAT IT IS A GREAT INVESTMENT INCREASING FASTER THAN GOLD, STOCKS OR ANY OTHER INVESTMENTS. IT WILL ALWAYS CONTINUE TO INCREASE BECAUSE THEY ARE NOT MAKEING ANY MORE AND THE TRIBES WILL SOON BE GONE FOREVER. IT IS UNFORTUNATE THAT MANY OF THESE COLLECTOR/INVESTORS CARE MUCH MORE ABOUT THE FACT IT SOLD AT SOUTHBYS OR CHRISTIES ECT. AND THAT THEY THINK IT WILL MAKE THEM LOADS OF MONEY THAN THEY DO ABOUT THE OBJECTS THEY BUY. THE BUG THAT EATS THEM IS MONEY NOT THE DESIRE TO HAVE , STUDY AND PRESERVE A UNIQUE ARTEFACT OF ANOTHER TIME AND PEOPLE AS IT IS WITH US. A GOOD THING IS SOME INVESTORS MAY GET BITTEN BY THE BUG THAT BIT US ALL IN THE PROCESS AND WHEN THAT HAPPENS AND THEY GET THE KNOWLEGE AND CONECTIONS, OFTEN A TRULY GREAT COLLECTION COMES TOGETHER. WITH KNOWLEGE AND PLENTY OF CASH TO BUY ANYTHING YOU WANT YOU CAN PUT A COLLECTION TOGETHER THAT HAS ONLY THE BEST EXAMPLES. (I CAN ONLY DREAM ) IT IS VEXING TO SEE PRICES DRIVEN UP ON WHAT WE LOVE ESPECIALLY WHEN A DAMAGED ITEM BRINGS A PRICE THAT WOULD HAVE ONLY BEEN APPROPRIATE OR HIGH FOR ONE IN PERFECT CONDITION. BUT SNAKE OIL SALESMEN THESE DAYS ARE NEVER SATISFIED WITH THEIR GAINS NO MATTER WHAT PERCENT OF PROFIT THEY ARE MAKEING THEY ALWAYS WANT TO PUSH IT HIGHER.

30th April 2006, 10:29 PM	#5
BluErf Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,180	For me, I feel that as long as the repair/replacement follows the traditional style of where the piece comes from, it is fine. This often entails the engagement of craftsmen who are from that culture.

30th April 2006, 10:32 PM	#6
BluErf Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,180	Hey Tim, that's a great repair. Maybe you want to stain the wood to match the original wood colour? Don't worry, people would still be able to see that it was repaired.

2nd May 2006, 01:55 AM	#7
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,280	Ok folks, here I go (by request). I was one of the bidders for these puppies but dropped out. I was thinking of restoring them. I do agree that the money paid is toooooo much (though I haven't got that much anyway). I was looking at repairing the way Ian had suggested. Yes, pre-ban ivory is exensive, but for the money I was willing to spend (half of what was paid?) it would have evened out (especially after selling the other one). Who ever got it will be paying more than it is worth now (especially if any restoration is done). The hardest part would be matching the grain, and that can not be done perfectly anyway. Yes some trim to the original, or certainly there will be a break line no matter what. I can live with that if it were not too obvious. I will never know now....... The other one - new head and new wrap. (silver for me ).