Help on mark on Italian sword ca. 1580

[Jens Nordlunde]

Victrix,


It was not always so. In Marv in Khorasan NW of India, they did not have iron ores, nor wood, so they had to import it, and they made fantastic sword blades. Ann Feuerback was there when they excavated a sword from the 9th century.
It is very interesting to resarch these old sword makers, but the informations are far between, and not always easy to find.

[Jens Nordlunde]

Jim,


It is hard to say if the Italians had a big export of sword blades, but I am sure they did export these blades to India.
When the Europeans copied each others stamps, and the Indians copied the different european stamps, so it can be very haard to say. However, we do see hints of Indian blades with European stamps, so these must have been copies of European blades.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

... It is hard to say if the Italians had a big export of sword blades, but I am sure they did export these blades to India...

Well Jens, all those bundles of blades taken by the Portuguese (firangi) for trade in India, were in fact of Italian manufacture.

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

Jim,


It is hard to say if the Italians had a big export of sword blades, but I am sure they did export these blades to India.
When the Europeans copied each others stamps, and the Indians copied the different european stamps, so it can be very haard to say. However, we do see hints of Indian blades with European stamps, so these must have been copies of European blades.

Very well noted Jens, with the cross use of markings whether punzones, phrases or names or combinations thereof, it is hard to say exactly which sources of blades were traded into India. I suppose it would be a matter as well of what period we are considering, and into which regions. The major ports of Italy, Genoa and Venice, of course carried blades among their goods into many entrepots in their trade networks, and within those probably mingled with shipments continuing to India.

While the Portuguese of course were notably the key early European contact traders into India (hence the term firangi was often taken to mean 'Portuguese' rather than the broader 'foreign'), my question was pertaining to any 'direct' trade with either of those Italian states.

[Jens Nordlunde]

Fernando, as you seem to know far more about the subject, I think it must be you ball game:-) - so I retire.


Yes Jim you have point, which is interesting, but I do not have the knowlege to answer it, it would take a lot of research, in an area where I have far too little knowledge.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

Fernando, as you seem to know far more about the subject, I think it must be you ball game:-) - so I retire ...

No ball ... or any other game, Jens; no such reaction needed . I know no more than what i have read so often. When i get home i may be able to define this in detail.

[Victrix]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Very well noted Jens, with the cross use of markings whether punzones, phrases or names or combinations thereof, it is hard to say exactly which sources of blades were traded into India. I suppose it would be a matter as well of what period we are considering, and into which regions. The major ports of Italy, Genoa and Venice, of course carried blades among their goods into many entrepots in their trade networks, and within those probably mingled with shipments continuing to India.

While the Portuguese of course were notably the key early European contact traders into India (hence the term firangi was often taken to mean 'Portuguese' rather than the broader 'foreign'), my question was pertaining to any 'direct' trade with either of those Italian states.

I’m pretty sure “firangi” means Frank or Frankish, Jim. This term is used for Western Europeans since crusader days when muslims did not distinguish much between European nationalities. When I went to a gold shop in an Arabian Gulf soukh 10 years ago to repair a contemporary gold chain, the proprietor gave me a beady eyed look and inquired whether it was “franji” (i.e. Western European, or Swedish in my particular case) gold. In contrast Orthodox or Byzance is called Rûm (as in East Rome or Constantinople) by muslims. So the local Orthodox hospital in Beirut is called Al Roum Hospital. They have used these terms for 1,000 years as far as I know as nations came and went.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Victrix

... I’m pretty sure “firangi” means Frank or Frankish, Jim. This term is used for Western Europeans since crusader days when muslims did not distinguish much between European nationalities...

So ... in due context, Portuguese were (also ) Firangi.

[Jim McDougall]

Thanks very much Victrix, and much agreed, the term had far more relation to the Franks or Frankish, and likely had origins in medieval times when the Franks were producing high quality blades such as the Ulfberth and Ingelrii. These were widely exported, though that was tried to be curbed, and it seems the term entered a good number of languages becoming indirectly a term for 'European' I believe. As always a matter of semantics.

Some years ago I had seen references which thought the term meant 'Portuguese' probably for the predominance of Portuguese colonies and trade in subcontinent and I believe in Sri Lanka.

Jens, I cannot allow you to underestimate your knowledge my friend, after all I have learned from you these many years! It is a complex question, and perhaps unfairly asked or at least posed. I know if anybody can find it though, you can, in your never ending travels through some of the most esoteric works on India.

[Jim McDougall]

Struggling through old notes, found this re: Italian blades in India

"...in 1691 we have note of an incident that throws light on the existence of so many European swords in use in India. It appears that in May of that year, Sir John Chardin, agent for the Armenian nation, presented a petition from Bogos Ariel, Davod and Zacaiia Parsijian, Armenian merchants who had contracted with the EIC of England to carry upon their ships the trade which they formerly did with Italy".

It appears that the source of the blades now to be carried are said to be from 'Nuremberg' and to the 'East Indies'. It appears that due to the restrictions in England on receiving German blades due to importing restrictions led to the dispersing of these blades into India. The Mahrathas did not think much of English blades, but very much favored German.

In the events in the Indian Ocean involving the notorious Captain Kidd, a virtual byword for 'pirate', his greatest infraction was the overtaking of a vessel in use in trade for India, and it does seem this was chartered or owned by Armenian merchants.

It would seem that much of the entry of European blades into India by this time was through trade conveyed by Armenian merchants. It would appear that these industrious merchants were instrumental in trade in a number of spheres in addition to India. The conveyance of trade blades into India, whether Italian or German, seem to have been brought in through these kinds of trades vessels by this time in the 17th century.

In the 17th century, the blade making industry in Toledo had faltered, and there was a great reliance on Germany for blades, while Italy still maintained a notable presence in producing them as well. The cross mingling of markings and spurious use of names etc. make the identification of blades to either very difficult in many cases. I am unaware of Portuguese blade producers, and had thought their blades to have been largely Solingen products, much as were the English trade venues.

The material on the Armenian conveyance:
"The Export of European Blades to India"
by Lord Dillon
in 'Archaeological Journal' Vol. LXii , p.67, 69-72

[Victrix]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Thanks very much Victrix, and much agreed, the term had far more relation to the Franks or Frankish, and likely had origins in medieval times when the Franks were producing high quality blades such as the Ulfberth and Ingelrii. These were widely exported, though that was tried to be curbed, and it seems the term entered a good number of languages becoming indirectly a term for 'European' I believe. As always a matter of semantics.

Some years ago I had seen references which thought the term meant 'Portuguese' probably for the predominance of Portuguese colonies and trade in subcontinent and I believe in Sri Lanka.

Jens, I cannot allow you to underestimate your knowledge my friend, after all I have learned from you these many years! It is a complex question, and perhaps unfairly asked or at least posed. I know if anybody can find it though, you can, in your never ending travels through some of the most esoteric works on India.

For those who are interested in the history of the time from different view points I can highly recommend Amin Maalouf’s The Crusades through Arab Eyes [2004] which uses contemporary Arab chronicles and eye witnesses accounts of the time. From the Foreword: “These latter [contemporary Arab chroniclers] spoke not of Crusades, but of Frankish wars, or ‘the Frankish invasions’. The word designating the Franks was transcribed in many ways, according to the region, author, and period. In the various chronicles, we find Faranj, Faranjat, Ifranj, Ifranjat, and other variants. For the sake of consistency, I have chosen to use the briefest form, Franj, a word which is used in colloquial Arabic even today to designate Westeners, and the French in particular.”

Incidentally, Frankreich, the German word for France, means Land of the Franks.

[Victrix]

Originally Posted by fernando

So ... in due context, Portuguese were (also ) Firangi.

Absolutely. It all depends on the context.

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

Jim,


It is hard to say if the Italians had a big export of sword blades, but I am sure they did export these blades to India.
When the Europeans copied each others stamps, and the Indians copied the different european stamps, so it can be very haard to say. However, we do see hints of Indian blades with European stamps, so these must have been copies of European blades.

For some reason, I am always of the impression that Italy was not particularly involved in any sort of mass export of blades. Most of what I have seen in accounts of Italian swords are that the blade makers produced their blades, which were then sent to hilt makers (for example in Brescia etc) and the sword in entirety was then to the client or armourer.
Many swords in the Wallace collection are seen with Italian blades but German hilts, sometimes even vice versa, so perhaps these were simply remounting exchanges.

I think the most prevalent evidence for exported blades would have been the Genoan (and surrounding cities) which is suggested by the noted copy of the famed sickle marks, which are notably copied by many Indian artisans on their blades.

[Jim McDougall]

Finally got my faithful Elgood, , "Hindu Arms & Ritual",
With the notes concerning the Armenian involvement in the transport of goods including sword blades into India, it is noted this was in the latter 17th c.

As the Portuguese presence began with Vasco de Gama in 1498 at Calicut and Elgood (p.39) notes the assumption that 'European' blades were entering Vijayanagara via the Portuguese on the coast from beginning of 16th c.

It is noted further that most of the European blades appear to have been from the Iberian Peninsula or Italy, and those described are rapier blades (p.38). It is also noted that many European blades had passed into Arab and Turk hands and unknown quantities preceded the Portuguese in falling into the hands of the indigenous peoples of India.

In 1514, Pires describes TRADE GOODS SENT FROM VENICE TO INDIA INCLUDING ARMS, so this is interesting as it sounds as if this was via a Portuguese transport.

It is noted that through the 16th century Portuguese relations in Vijayanagara were good and included their supplying allies with arms.
This however seems to have changed in about 1606 when Dutch began challenging Portuguese monopoly and they were defeated by the ruler of Jaffna, with many weapons captured.
Apparently the Marathas also captured many arms from them later, by early 18th c. The Dutch began dominating trade markets and clearly the blades were by this time German.

Tavernier records weapons at Surat as long rapiers probably sold by English or Portuguese, and it seems these were 16th c. with most tending to be German, but some being Spanish and Italian.

Basically it seems that from contact and through 16th century there was a predominance of blades presumably through Portuguese sourcing, but they were not exclusively Italian, but mostly German with a number of Iberian and Italian blades.

By early 17th century, the Dutch as well as EIC became key suppliers and these were primarily German blades. While it is noted that ANDREA FERARA blades were among these, we know of course that these were produced in great number in Solingen from early to mid 17th into 18th century.

[Victrix]

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

Jim,


It is hard to say if the Italians had a big export of sword blades, but I am sure they did export these blades to India.
When the Europeans copied each others stamps, and the Indians copied the different european stamps, so it can be very haard to say. However, we do see hints of Indian blades with European stamps, so these must have been copies of European blades.

The link mentions Polish sources suggesting Russian exports of captured Polish swords produced in Italy and Styria to the Caucasus and Central Asia. Possibly another source of these Firengi (i.e. European) blades?

http://www.antiques.com/classified/A...an-Talwar-Hilt

[fernando]

Portuguese served as the lingua franca in 15th and 16th century Africa and Asia. When the Portuguese began exploring the seas of Africa, the Americas, Asia and Oceania, they tried to communicate with the natives by mixing a version of the lingua franca (influenced by Portuguese) with the local languages. When English and French ships arrived to compete with the Portuguese, the crews sought to learn this truncated Portuguese. Through successive changes over time, the lingua franca, along with the Portuguese vocabulary, has been replaced by the language of the peoples concerned.

.

[fernando]

Have i just seen the famous mark in a sturdy XVIII century Spanish plug bayonet ?
Were the Spaniards also fond of replicating the 'ferri di molino' brand ... or has this blade made its way from Veneto to Spain; unlikely, i guess.

(Toledo Army Museum)


.

[Jim McDougall]

Points noted Jim,
So, between the two 'unlikely' probabilities, the Italian blade mounted in a Spanish plug (hunting) bayonet would be the more likely one.
No such mention in he caption, though


.

[Reventlov]

Here is an interesting example of the single millrind mark - on the same blade appears the "Passau wolf". The sword is suggested to be Italian, being exceptionally similar to one in a well known painting... So should we suppose this is an example of a contemporary faked Passau mark? Or perhaps the millrind is indeed not a personal maker's mark, as I think was suggested above...

https://www.metmuseum.org/art/collec...=80&pos=41