Help on mark on Italian sword ca. 1580

[cornelistromp]

I noticed this storta some time on a German website , I believe it was offered by Historica Arma and/or Fricker, did you acguire it recently ?

best,

[fernando]

It looks like a LOT OF INK has been spent in the discussion of this mark, both in origin as in purpose ... as well as in terminology.
Origin is consensually accepted as that from the Veneto area, while its purpose is 'arguably' to identify an arsenal. While in one hand Javier Ramos (for the case) textually says "I would have to check if my memory fails again but I remember vaguely that the "marca a mosca" (fly mark) is not an armourer mark but an arsenal mark (Venice)", On the other hand, the fact that the mark appears either single or in trios, does denote that, for an (one) arsenal mark, is somehow inconsistent. Also interesting that there seems to be an intention to place the central of these (triple) marks in a different position. As for the mark naming, beyond the english connotation "twigs", i wonder why some Italian sources call it MOSCA (fly), and Boccia & Coelho, who are not ignaros in these things, prefer to call it FERRI DI MULINO.


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[Jim McDougall]

The ink spot has proven invaluable in networking to other discussions and threads concerning these Italian marks, which as shown may be referred to as 'twigs' or 'marca a mosca'.
My reason for bringing up the suggestion of the single mark being a possible arsenal mark for Venice is that it was an interesting possibility which seemed worthy of mention in a discussion with notable scope in examining these.

As I noted in my previous post, the aspects of this suggestion in which I might dispute the 'arsenal' possibility would be that these turn up on rapier blades, distinctly a civilian weapon of these times.
Also, I would wonder, which arsenal, that of the Doge of Venice? or perhaps the Papal arsenal ? or were there more?

I also realize that I have suggested that these 'twig' (for the sake of discussion) marks were exclusively Italian, which is incorrect, as in my thread of June 2010 I noted the fly marks (aka twigs) were indeed duplicated in Germany. Clearly the German makers applied the known Italian marks spuriously in the same fashion as those of Spain.

Clearly there will be multiple colloquial terms used for these and similar marks in various regions and transliterations. It is of course one of the frustrating perils of the study of arms over many centuries and in many cultures with many languages. I think Philip well described this situation with regard to Italian circumstances as case in point.

There is also the circumstance of assigning certain marks to certain areas in addition to attempting to align them to a particular maker, which has its own futility. In Italy, the Veneto regions encompassed not only Venice, the capital and port, but Caino, Brescia, Belluno, Ferrara and others even Milan.

In the regions of Genoa, which included Lucca and others, it seems the so called sickle marks became the known device inexorably linked to Genoa, yet some authorities believe its use began in Lucca. In those western regions of North Italy the 'sickle' device also became used in multiple and oddly configured arrangements on blades. It has often been suggested that the Genoan association was due to that being the departure port for the blades of these regions.

With these instances, it would seem that these distinctive central devices may have become collectively associated with regions as described. It is notable that in many instances of works on weapons, a mark of these types is often associated with the region to which the sword it occurs upon is attributed. Thus a sword mounted in Brescia, but with a blade from other locations in Veneto, becomes Brescian.

As an interesting anomaly, having distinguished the marca a mosca (twig) to Veneto regions, and the 'Genoan' sickle marks to the centers there, a blade curiously found on a straight blade tulwar has the sickle marks with the twig in the center. Now theres a conundrum!!

[Victrix]

Great thread! As far as I’m aware the Venice arsenal marks would be either a C.X. for Consiglio dei Dieci or the Lion of St. Mark. So it seems to me that the twig mark must be an identifier of origin for the purchaser and seller alike. It might also have been something of a quality standard mark that it had passed tests by a guild. Marca a Mosca is probably a descriptive term (like “twig” mark). I think Fernando is onto something when pointing to Boccia & Coelho mentioning the mark as ferri di mulino (iron mill) marks. On German swords carrying the twig marks you might consider the possibility that these were North Italian blades with fake Solingen marks, rather than the other way around.

I wish I could find more to read on this in the English language (like Gotti’s Caino book!). You may find this of interest: https://www.hema-minsk2019.org/base_...ibition-part-3. It mentions a Beluni knot.

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Victrix

Great thread! As far as I’m aware the Venice arsenal marks would be either a C.X. for Consiglio dei Dieci or the Lion of St. Mark. So it seems to me that the twig mark must be an identifier of origin for the purchaser and seller alike. It might also have been something of a quality standard mark that it had passed tests by a guild. Marca a Mosca is probably a descriptive term (like “twig” mark). I think Fernando is onto something when pointing to Boccia & Coelho mentioning the mark as ferri di mulino (iron mill) marks. On German swords carrying the twig marks you might consider the possibility that these were North Italian blades with fake Solingen marks, rather than the other way around.

I wish I could find more to read on this in the English language (like Gotti’s Caino book!). You may find this of interest: https://www.hema-minsk2019.org/base_...ibition-part-3. It mentions a Beluni knot.

It REALLY is a great thread! and you bring forth some great points. The arsenal of the Doge at Venice is remarkable, and I do recall the CX (Council of Ten) which seems to appear on a very limited number of weapons. The winged lion of St. Mark also seems limited in occurrence, both of these are described well in Boccia & Coelho. It seems these are seen on some of the schiavona so well associated with the Doge.

Very interesting points you bring up on the 'twig' mark described as the ferri di Mulino in Boccia & Coelho, which seems not only appropriate but telling.
This reference to 'iron mill' obviously lends well to a place producing blades, and I know that I have seen this mark noted as a 'mill rind' as well. The 'rind' is of course the four armed support for the millstone, and the quadrangular nature of this mark in basis is tempting to such association.

I will note here that there are markings used in very similar capacity, which are dentated circles known as 'cog wheels' (Mann, 1962, Wallace Coll. A768).
Here we have another component of the machinery of blade producing mills used as a mark on blades.

What is puzzling is, these marks seem with basic features, but in variation distorted (some of the 'marca mosca; twig; ferri di Mulino) so much so that the numbers of them in Wallace Coll. plates look almost like Rohrschach images.

You make a very good point on the possibility of Italian blades carrying these 'twig' marks possibly reflecting German markings. In looking through Wallace Coll. it seems the propensity of these type marks in German swords is profound, so that possibility is quite plausible. There was so much diffusion of the spurious use of marks, and even movements of makers between countries that it would be difficult to make broad classifications on them. It becomes very much a matter of assessment based on merits and features of each specific weapon.

Great link and often surprising how much important historic detail is included in these kinds of references involving reproduction of classic swords.
On the Gotti book...……….wish I could find one!!! Pretty hard to find, and all there is online with this name is of course the 'Teflon don'. Sometimes pop culture overwhelms serious history.

[AndreaFeraro89]

Originally Posted by Victrix

Great thread! As far as I’m aware the Venice arsenal marks would be either a C.X. for Consiglio dei Dieci or the Lion of St. Mark. So it seems to me that the twig mark must be an identifier of origin for the purchaser and seller alike. It might also have been something of a quality standard mark that it had passed tests by a guild. Marca a Mosca is probably a descriptive term (like “twig” mark). I think Fernando is onto something when pointing to Boccia & Coelho mentioning the mark as ferri di mulino (iron mill) marks. On German swords carrying the twig marks you might consider the possibility that these were North Italian blades with fake Solingen marks, rather than the other way around.

I wish I could find more to read on this in the English language (like Gotti’s Caino book!). You may find this of interest: https://www.hema-minsk2019.org/base_...ibition-part-3. It mentions a Beluni knot.

Hi All,
my name is Giovanni Sartori, I live in Northern Italy and my main interest is to recover and to share knowledge about italian arms and armour makers.

I am the author of the article about storta for the exhibition in Minsk and I am the maker of the copy of the Caino storta shown in the article (and the video documentary, sadly avaiable only with catalogue of the exhibition).

By the way, I am here to tell you some things about marks, Andrea Feraro, Belluno and other towns related to swordmaking in Republic of Venice.

There is a lot to tell, I will start with marks but spending some words about the production area.

The "Belluno Flyes" or "Belluno Knots" (I use second term) are marks mainly used in the area that I call swordmakers "triangle".

This area develops around 3 main towns: Belluno, Feltre and Vittorio Veneto (before IWW his divided is Serravalle and Ceneda 2 little villages along the turrent Meschio).
The reasons of such a great development of swordmaking art here are mainly 3:
-the nearness with mines of Fursil and Colle Santa Lucia that provides, since roman times, a superio quality of ore. Manganese rich siderite is a ore relatively poor of iron content (around 40%) but fre from phosphor and sulphur that are the worst elements to have in the steel. On other hand manganese is an element that gives great mechanical propreties to the steel made (we can discuss later about this point)
-the nearness with 2 big rivers (Brenta and Piave), that are crucial to transport goods from production centers to Venice lagoon, where is the bigger market of renaissance Europe. Do you know Stradivari Violins? very good... same rivers where used to bring wood to make that violins from Val di Fiemme forests.
-the presence of the main "driving force" before invention of steam engine: the hydraulic power. This area is full of water and we are in the very first part of dolomitic area (alps) so become easier to use the force of the falling water.

In this area many swordmaking masters has lived and worked. In Belluno for example Andrea Feraro and his brother Zandonà has started to work at the Fisterre workshop owned by Giovanni Barcelloni (do you remember the scorpion mark on hafted weapons? http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/newrep...eply&p=244426#). Andrea has countinued to live and work in Belluno until the end of his life (no... he has not moved to Scotland or Brescia or Milan). His brother Zandonà has bought his workshop in Serravalle (Vittorio Veneto) and his descendance has contiunued to produce swords until the end of XVII century.
Another great master is Pietro da Formicano (another story to tell)

To come back to the marks...
This marks seems to appear in the second half of XV century and being used during all XVI and very first part of XVII. The real meaning of them is still unclear, many legends but nothing certain. They are not related to the Venice arsenal because arsenal mark was used in Venice where they not produce, but only store weapons and armours. The classical arsenal mark is a circle with a St.Marc Lion inside (simbol of Venice Republic). Same thing for Doge armoury (CX armoury).

CIVIDAL DE BELUN is for cetainly a rare mark (Cividal is the roman name of city, sometimes used alone to indicate Belluno). And proves in my opionion the production of big stocks of blades made by many swordmakers together.

To conclude, I have studied many years the belunese swordmakers and now I am part of a big project called KLANG.

The aim of this project is to study this lost history of our countries and to promote it. We are planning conferences, exhibitions, new studies and pubblications.

Feel free to ask me everithing you want about the argoument, I will do my best to give you an exhaustive reply

All the best
Giovanni Sartori

[fernando]

Benvenuto nel forum, Giovanni .
Great info and revelations you have posted. I am sure the members will love to read all that ... and more to come, if you will

[Jens Nordlunde]

Hello Giovanni, and welcome to the forum.
I dont collect European swords and daggers, but I do have a Firangi with a blade from Belluno.

[kronckew]

Originally Posted by cornelistromp

I noticed this storta some time on a German website , I believe it was offered by Historica Arma and/or Fricker, did you acguire it recently ?

best,

I questioned that myself earlier. It was on the Historica site, as a two handed storta, now taken down after sale.

Apparently the OP, BladeMan, bought it from the noted website recently and posted it here before they updated their site. .

[BladeMan]

That‘s a lot of interesting and helpful information here, thank you all. Much appreciated.

Measurements are in post #11, i copied them again:
Length is 92 cm with a 70 cm blade, PoB is 13 cm and the weight is 1011 grams


And yes, i bought this sword from Historica Arma a few weeks ago and the dealer forgot to take it off the website.

[Jim McDougall]

I forgot to add to my earlier post, the image of the ferri di mulino, which is the mill rind component of blade making mill machinery which may be the pictographic device apparently used as a symbol represented in these marks (of course with notable variations). The varied interpretations of this basic symbol may account for the unusual terms describing them, such as the 'fly' or 'twig'.

In the attachment is the heraldic version from Italian coat of arms.

As mentioned earlier, another application of such mill machinery used symbolically in blade makers markings is the cog wheel, which if I understand seems more used in German context.
These are more of a sphere with dentated lines extended from it in a surround like sun with rays, and this of course often seen as a solar symbol.

It seems that in highly regarded work such as the Wallace Collection catalog James Mann refers to these markings as 'makers marks', which in my impression does align them with certain makers. However there was so much cross use of these devices by various makers, as well as the deviation or use in different number and configuration, aligning these to a particular maker is in my view, typically most unlikely.

Naturally there are many makers marks known assigned to specific makers from recorded material, and those are well listed in the compendiums we commonly use.

[Jens Nordlunde]

Now that the town of Belluno has been mentioned, I think it would be interesting to show a blade from this town - although the sword is from Deccan 17th century..
The sword is a firangi, meaning wit a foreign blade, and the inscription says XX CIVIDAL D BELUN XX - which means 'The City of Belluno'.

[Jim McDougall]

Jens, thank you so much for this entry!!!
This is a magnificent example, and I forgot our discussions on this some years back. This example inscription was the first I had learned of Italian blades being inscribed with specific city, indicating this may have belonged to perhaps a city guard or militia unit, in this case Belluno.

Naturally our reaction is to recall the famed Andrea Ferara, who has been steeped in mystery for literally centuries, is now known to have actually been a working swordsmith in the last quarter of the 16th c.

Belluno was one of the number of well known blade making cities in the Veneto sphere, which seems to extended as far as Milan, Brescia and Ferara (interestingly not the city where either Andrea or his brother Donato worked).

Of note are the 'X's enclosing the wording, an affectation often seen on Solingen blades, and often with the ANDREA FERARA name, known to have been spuriously applied there for blades destined for Scotland.

It is fascinating learning more on these Italian blades, and most interesting to try to determine the aspects of their notable presence as 'firangi' in the swords of India. While we know there was a considerable conduit of German blades into India, less is known on the blades from Italy, which I don't think had as much direct trade with India...….or did they?

[Jens Nordlunde]

Jim, you are welcome and yes it is quite interesting.
Belluno is in the south of Tirol, in the Dolomits in northern Italy, and at the time it was under Veneziano control. Te town was famous for sword smiths like Andrea Ferrara, Pietro Formicano and others. To this comes that in the Dolomits there are a number of iron mines from where they got the raw material.