Whoa ! Moro

panday · 30th April 2006, 10:26 AM

Ebay bidding wars now a days is so extream, and it's getting worse day by day! you got'ta push your self sometimes to get what you want, otherwise, you'll get dust

When I bid, I make sure that I have the capacity to sustain that responsibility when it comes back at me, even to the max. As they say, good stuff are priceless! so eh! don't blame this guys if they want to add this priceless pieces on there collections. . . .blame the bug that bit them

Spunjer · 30th April 2006, 12:14 PM

yeah, i was watching the live auction on that one.

going back to the kris, is it even possible to fix the broken part of the pommel without it looking ovbious?

nechesh · 30th April 2006, 02:24 PM

You know, i think that the ivory pommel kris is a fine looking weapon even with the damage.....but i think i wouldn't be willing to pay more than half that price for it. If it were mine i don't think i would try to restore such damage. I think it would be really difficult to make it look right without the original piece.

Rick · 30th April 2006, 03:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nechesh

You know, i think that the ivory pommel kris is a fine looking weapon even with the damage.....but i think i wouldn't be willing to pay more than half that price for it. If it were mine i don't think i would try to restore such damage. I think it would be really difficult to make it look right without the original piece.

I hear what you're saying Nechesh ; I might have paid $3-$400.00 for it but when I start to think that way this picture always pops into my mind .

VANDOO · 30th April 2006, 04:57 PM

KNOWLEGABLE COLLECTORS AND ART COLLECTORS WHO DO IT FOR INVESTMENT OR TO IMPRESS PEOPLE ARE WORLDS APART. WHEN YOU SEE THE WORDS GALLERY, SOUTHBYS, OR CHRISTIES THE MAIN TARGET BUYERS GROUPS ARE THOSE WITH LOTS OF MONEY WHO WILL LISTEN TO WHAT THEY SAY A ITEM IS WORTH AND WHAT THEY PROJECT IT WILL BE WORTH SHORTLY AS A INVESTMENT. SO IT IS NOT UNUSUAL FOR SOMETHING TO SELL FOR MUCH MORE THAN WE WOULD PAY AS THEY HAVE SEEN THAT IT IS USUALLY APRAISED AT MORE THAN THEY END UP PAYING AND THEY HAVE BEEN TOLD HOW FAST THE PRICE IS RISING AND THAT IT IS A GREAT INVESTMENT INCREASING FASTER THAN GOLD, STOCKS OR ANY OTHER INVESTMENTS. IT WILL ALWAYS CONTINUE TO INCREASE BECAUSE THEY ARE NOT MAKEING ANY MORE AND THE TRIBES WILL SOON BE GONE FOREVER.

IT IS UNFORTUNATE THAT MANY OF THESE COLLECTOR/INVESTORS CARE MUCH MORE ABOUT THE FACT IT SOLD AT SOUTHBYS OR CHRISTIES ECT. AND THAT THEY THINK IT WILL MAKE THEM LOADS OF MONEY THAN THEY DO ABOUT THE OBJECTS THEY BUY. THE BUG THAT EATS THEM IS MONEY NOT THE DESIRE TO HAVE , STUDY AND PRESERVE A UNIQUE ARTEFACT OF ANOTHER TIME AND PEOPLE AS IT IS WITH US. A GOOD THING IS SOME INVESTORS MAY GET BITTEN BY THE BUG THAT BIT US ALL IN THE PROCESS AND WHEN THAT HAPPENS AND THEY GET THE KNOWLEGE AND CONECTIONS, OFTEN A TRULY GREAT COLLECTION COMES TOGETHER. WITH KNOWLEGE AND PLENTY OF CASH TO BUY ANYTHING YOU WANT YOU CAN PUT A COLLECTION TOGETHER THAT HAS ONLY THE BEST EXAMPLES. (I CAN ONLY DREAM

)

IT IS VEXING TO SEE PRICES DRIVEN UP ON WHAT WE LOVE ESPECIALLY WHEN A DAMAGED ITEM BRINGS A PRICE THAT WOULD HAVE ONLY BEEN APPROPRIATE OR HIGH FOR ONE IN PERFECT CONDITION. BUT SNAKE OIL SALESMEN THESE DAYS ARE NEVER SATISFIED WITH THEIR GAINS NO MATTER WHAT PERCENT OF PROFIT THEY ARE MAKEING THEY ALWAYS WANT TO PUSH IT HIGHER.

ariel · 30th April 2006, 07:31 PM

These comments beg for a general question:
Is it appropriate and desirable to perform extensive repair on the antiques that were damaged by age, use and (inevitably, as they are instruments of war) abuse?
I am not trying to argue one way or another, but just want your opinions:
if you get a great sword with a noticeably damaged handle and the damage is also obviously old, would you repair the damage to make it invisible even though the repair negates the history and the experience of the sword? Is it permissible to perform an extensive (and often expensive) cosmetic surgery on a weapon not in order to restore it's needed function but to superficially return it to the pristine state? Even more, would you further enhance the appearance, such as silver-cladding the handle, or attaching a junggayan handle to a great blade with an original but ordinary one?
I am not talking about actual users who put a new handle on a sword to take it to battle (that goes without saying!) but about collectors who want to have a virginally- perfect sword on the wall.

Rick · 30th April 2006, 08:14 PM

Hi Ariel , just my opinion but I think this can be quite a subjective question .

In the case of the krisses under discussion I'm led to ask myself "What would the original owner do ?" ; in most cases I think that if the sword in its native environment was damaged to the point of the ivory pommel piece in question that either a repair , replacement or modification would be done . I would also think the same would apply to the kris without a pommel .

Now this may be unique to the world of keris and kris ; but the heart and soul of these weapons is the blade regardless of Indo/Malay or Moro origin .
In these cultures dress was and is replaced regularly as it aged or was damaged ; not to do so was considered disrespectful to the keris/kris itself .
Often hilts would be removed and sold if the owner hit hard times ; then a less expensive hilt would be used .
Now when these pieces wind up in Western hands *in my opinion* providing a quality repair or replacement can be done if it is in keeping with the culture .

When it comes down to it the blade is the heart and soul of the keris/kris and is deserving of honor regardless of the culture it winds up in .

Ian · 30th April 2006, 02:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spunjer

going back to the kris, is it even possible to fix the broken part of the pommel without it looking ovbious?

Battara might be able to give us some insight on this. But it looks a really difficult repair to me. To create a decent joint it would probably be necessary to trim more off what is left. Matching the grain of the new ivory with the old, and continuing the carved lines on the added piece would seem a major challenge. And new ivory would look odd on this old piece. A whole new ivory hilt would probably be necessary IMO. Finding an expert ivory carver for the old repair or a new piece would be a big challenge too.

BluErf · 30th April 2006, 04:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spunjer

yeah, i was watching the live auction on that one.

going back to the kris, is it even possible to fix the broken part of the pommel without it looking ovbious?

I think the repair will always be visible, it's only a matter of how obvious. I have seen incredibly good old repairs to wood and ivory in which the new piece fitted perfectly with the old piece, and the new piece was stained to closely match the original colour.

In my collection, I have an mid-period tajong (probably 18th century) which had suffered substantial damage to its buah pinang and one of its shoulders. One of its previous owner deemed it valuable enough to repair, and well-repaired it was. The shoulder portion was also carved to match the lines that was flowing from the main body. I think if you look intently, you can see where the repairs were.

BluErf · 30th April 2006, 04:22 PM

.

30th April 2006, 07:31 PM	#6
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	These comments beg for a general question: Is it appropriate and desirable to perform extensive repair on the antiques that were damaged by age, use and (inevitably, as they are instruments of war) abuse? I am not trying to argue one way or another, but just want your opinions: if you get a great sword with a noticeably damaged handle and the damage is also obviously old, would you repair the damage to make it invisible even though the repair negates the history and the experience of the sword? Is it permissible to perform an extensive (and often expensive) cosmetic surgery on a weapon not in order to restore it's needed function but to superficially return it to the pristine state? Even more, would you further enhance the appearance, such as silver-cladding the handle, or attaching a junggayan handle to a great blade with an original but ordinary one? I am not talking about actual users who put a new handle on a sword to take it to battle (that goes without saying!) but about collectors who want to have a virginally- perfect sword on the wall. Last edited by ariel; 30th April 2006 at 08:37 PM.

30th April 2006, 08:14 PM	#7
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,339	The Opinion of a Kris/Keris Collector Hi Ariel , just my opinion but I think this can be quite a subjective question . In the case of the krisses under discussion I'm led to ask myself "What would the original owner do ?" ; in most cases I think that if the sword in its native environment was damaged to the point of the ivory pommel piece in question that either a repair , replacement or modification would be done . I would also think the same would apply to the kris without a pommel . Now this may be unique to the world of keris and kris ; but the heart and soul of these weapons is the blade regardless of Indo/Malay or Moro origin . In these cultures dress was and is replaced regularly as it aged or was damaged ; not to do so was considered disrespectful to the keris/kris itself . Often hilts would be removed and sold if the owner hit hard times ; then a less expensive hilt would be used . Now when these pieces wind up in Western hands in my opinion providing a quality repair or replacement can be done if it is in keeping with the culture . When it comes down to it the blade is the heart and soul of the keris/kris and is deserving of honor regardless of the culture it winds up in .

30th April 2006, 04:22 PM	#10
BluErf Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,180	. Attached Images

30th April 2006, 10:26 AM	#1
panday Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 50	Ebay bidding wars now a days is so extream, and it's getting worse day by day! you got'ta push your self sometimes to get what you want, otherwise, you'll get dust When I bid, I make sure that I have the capacity to sustain that responsibility when it comes back at me, even to the max. As they say, good stuff are priceless! so eh! don't blame this guys if they want to add this priceless pieces on there collections. . . .blame the bug that bit them

30th April 2006, 12:14 PM	#2
Spunjer Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Witness Protection Program Posts: 1,730	yeah, i was watching the live auction on that one. going back to the kris, is it even possible to fix the broken part of the pommel without it looking ovbious?

30th April 2006, 02:24 PM	#3
nechesh Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 940	You know, i think that the ivory pommel kris is a fine looking weapon even with the damage.....but i think i wouldn't be willing to pay more than half that price for it. If it were mine i don't think i would try to restore such damage. I think it would be really difficult to make it look right without the original piece.

30th April 2006, 04:57 PM	#5
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	KNOWLEGABLE COLLECTORS AND ART COLLECTORS WHO DO IT FOR INVESTMENT OR TO IMPRESS PEOPLE ARE WORLDS APART. WHEN YOU SEE THE WORDS GALLERY, SOUTHBYS, OR CHRISTIES THE MAIN TARGET BUYERS GROUPS ARE THOSE WITH LOTS OF MONEY WHO WILL LISTEN TO WHAT THEY SAY A ITEM IS WORTH AND WHAT THEY PROJECT IT WILL BE WORTH SHORTLY AS A INVESTMENT. SO IT IS NOT UNUSUAL FOR SOMETHING TO SELL FOR MUCH MORE THAN WE WOULD PAY AS THEY HAVE SEEN THAT IT IS USUALLY APRAISED AT MORE THAN THEY END UP PAYING AND THEY HAVE BEEN TOLD HOW FAST THE PRICE IS RISING AND THAT IT IS A GREAT INVESTMENT INCREASING FASTER THAN GOLD, STOCKS OR ANY OTHER INVESTMENTS. IT WILL ALWAYS CONTINUE TO INCREASE BECAUSE THEY ARE NOT MAKEING ANY MORE AND THE TRIBES WILL SOON BE GONE FOREVER. IT IS UNFORTUNATE THAT MANY OF THESE COLLECTOR/INVESTORS CARE MUCH MORE ABOUT THE FACT IT SOLD AT SOUTHBYS OR CHRISTIES ECT. AND THAT THEY THINK IT WILL MAKE THEM LOADS OF MONEY THAN THEY DO ABOUT THE OBJECTS THEY BUY. THE BUG THAT EATS THEM IS MONEY NOT THE DESIRE TO HAVE , STUDY AND PRESERVE A UNIQUE ARTEFACT OF ANOTHER TIME AND PEOPLE AS IT IS WITH US. A GOOD THING IS SOME INVESTORS MAY GET BITTEN BY THE BUG THAT BIT US ALL IN THE PROCESS AND WHEN THAT HAPPENS AND THEY GET THE KNOWLEGE AND CONECTIONS, OFTEN A TRULY GREAT COLLECTION COMES TOGETHER. WITH KNOWLEGE AND PLENTY OF CASH TO BUY ANYTHING YOU WANT YOU CAN PUT A COLLECTION TOGETHER THAT HAS ONLY THE BEST EXAMPLES. (I CAN ONLY DREAM ) IT IS VEXING TO SEE PRICES DRIVEN UP ON WHAT WE LOVE ESPECIALLY WHEN A DAMAGED ITEM BRINGS A PRICE THAT WOULD HAVE ONLY BEEN APPROPRIATE OR HIGH FOR ONE IN PERFECT CONDITION. BUT SNAKE OIL SALESMEN THESE DAYS ARE NEVER SATISFIED WITH THEIR GAINS NO MATTER WHAT PERCENT OF PROFIT THEY ARE MAKEING THEY ALWAYS WANT TO PUSH IT HIGHER.