Help on mark on Italian sword ca. 1580

[Philip]

Originally Posted by fernando

Splendid !
Sorry my ignorance; isn't this a Storta ?
I am not qualified to judge on this sword's properties but, i would dare to sustain that, its 'lonely' ferro di molino mark looks very real. .

Nando, it fits the characteristics of size and configuration that would identify it as a storta -- a short, cutlass-type hilt weapon with a single edged blade, popular in northern Italy. This example has a blade with a deeper curve and is somewhat narrower than the majority. (Many tend to widen somewhat at the tip and have a clipped point as in the medieval falchion, as well) But anomalies are to be expected in a type that was widely used over an extended period of time.

I also agree on the mark. It's on several Italian blades in my collection, and appears singly as well as in groups.

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Philip

Nando, it fits the characteristics of size and configuration that would identify it as a storta -- a short, cutlass-type hilt weapon with a single edged blade, popular in northern Italy. This example has a blade with a deeper curve and is somewhat narrower than the majority. (Many tend to widen somewhat at the tip and have a clipped point as in the medieval falchion, as well) But anomalies are to be expected in a type that was widely used over an extended period of time.

I also agree on the mark. It's on several Italian blades in my collection, and appears singly as well as in groups.

Philip we crossed posts! As always, perfect description and insight on these stortas, and well noted on the case for anomalies in them which better describes the reasons for the many variations typically seen.

[BladeMan]

@fernando, Yes it is in my collection.

The blade actually widens up towards the tip just a little at the last quarter, right where the blade becomes double edged.
But yes, it's overall narrower and deeper curved then the majority.
Frankly, those "anomalies" is what makes the most attraction for me.

[Philip]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Philip we crossed posts! As always, perfect description and insight on these stortas, and well noted on the case for anomalies in them which better describes the reasons for the many variations typically seen.

Thanks, Jim. The more of these things I see, the more variety in blade shapes there seem to be. It's easy to assume that there's a "classic form" of blade on these things that forms a defining benchmark, when you look at the gorgeous "droolers" with Brescian chiseled blades in Boccia / Coelho, Armi Bianche Italiane. The typical contour is indeed the type with the pronounced "Bowie-knife style" clipped point.

Some perspective is gained from a selection of somewhat more plebian examples in Roberto Gotti's book Caino, which delves into the sword-blade-making industry in this small Brescian town, one of Italy's several counterparts to Passau and Solingen. Here can be seen blade types of slight curvature, and edges that are radiused to a gently upturned point -- imagine a short version of a shashka or liuyedao blade. And recently in an online auction catalog I saw one with a prominent raised yelman, making it resemble a snubnosed kilij.

Re: terminology -- These weapons were actually known by several names, the most frequent in the literature being storta ( plural: storte ). This may be a derived from a vernacular term used in the region of Veneto, where these large knives were especially popular.

An alternative term is coltella, plural coltelle , related to the standard Italian word for knife, coltello (being a Texas guy you're no doubt familiar with the Spanish cuchillo. ) Lionello Boccia also includes the term coltellaccio in the book referenced previously.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Philip

... Re: terminology -- These weapons were actually known by several names, the most frequent in the literature being storta ( plural: storte ).This may be a derived from a vernacular term used in the region of Veneto, where these large knives were especially popular...

So interesting; to the point in that, the term storta (twisted, unstraight) possibly an allusion to this sword guard, made a career in dictionaries, as nowadays attributed to a scimitar or a cutlass.

[CSinTX]

Very nice sword! Please post more of your collection if you don't mind. Would love to see other unique pieces.

[Jim McDougall]

Philip, thank you for the great further insights into these fascinating short sabres of North Italy. As you point out, the terminology does present challenges for collectors outside the Italian language sphere, as the singular and plural versions of 'storta' seem the same but for the a or e at the end.

Also the many variations on the blades are understandable, as these regions of Veneto in Italy were really in such proximity with the cities whose names are well known in the annals of famed blade production. The makers in these cities, whose names are in many cases legendary, clearly were among the most innovative in their field, and there appears to have been profound competition in developing ever more effective blade forms.

In these areas and with this brisk competition and developmental innovation among blade producers, it seems inevitable that descriptive terms, derived from various vernacular terms, would become applied collectively in many cases outside the original specific.

Here in Texas (as you noted) there is of course a pretty good spectrum of typically large bladed knives, but regardless of intricacies in character of features, the broad term 'Bowie' reigns in the vernacular.
The Spanish cognate 'cuchillo' to the Italian 'coltello', is probably more confined to the Mexican vernacular, but even there other slang terms often apply.

Thank you so much also for always bring up such great book titles and references! I absolutely must get the book 'Caino' as you have noted.
Here again, the use of a place name has been interpreted often as a makers name, and entwined in the 'lore' of writers who have woven it into the fiber of ever repeated 'references' in published material.

Getting back to the case at hand from the OP, looking at maps of the region of Veneto (where Venice is capital) the other locations in this region and contiguous proximity include Belluno ( in north with Ferrara to the south) of course aligned with the mysterious Andrea Ferara; Milan to the west; and naturally Brescia as you have well noted. ……...the potential for cross use of the stamped marks we are discussing is not only likely, but probable.

While the makers names associated with these locations are of course well known in some cases, but the numbers of workers and shops not well known must have been notable.

[batjka]

Beautiful sword! Curious that it has a relatively short blade, but a two-handed hilt. Although many Lange Messers had a long hilt, which is utilized in fighting with that particular weapon. Perhaps there is an overlapping of traditions between Germanic lands and northern Italy.

[Philip]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

.


In these areas and with this brisk competition and developmental innovation among blade producers, it seems inevitable that descriptive terms, derived from various vernacular terms, would become applied collectively in many cases outside the original specific.

Here in Texas (as you noted) there is of course a pretty good spectrum of typically large bladed knives, but regardless of intricacies in character of features, the broad term 'Bowie' reigns in the vernacular.
The Spanish cognate 'cuchillo' to the Italian 'coltello', is probably more confined to the Mexican vernacular, but even there other slang terms often apply.

Getting back to the case at hand from the OP, looking at maps of the region of Veneto (where Venice is capital) the other locations in this region and contiguous proximity include Belluno ( in north with Ferrara to the south) of course aligned with the mysterious Andrea Ferara; Milan to the west; and naturally Brescia as you have well noted. ……...the potential for cross use of the stamped marks we are discussing is not only likely, but probable.

While the makers names associated with these locations are of course well known in some cases, but the numbers of workers and shops not well known must have been notable.

Jim, here are some tidbits to address the points raised in your post.

1. Terminology and linguistics can get understandably complex in Italy, which was essentially a conglomeration of states and subcultures during the centuries between the fall of the Roman Empire and the 1870 reunification. For that time, different regions were fought over and ruled by all sorts of foreign powers, from the Moors to the French, the Germanic Holy Roman Empire, and Spain - so you have the added dimension of alien ruling classes on top of the local yokels who were there for donkey years before. Not to mention Genoese and Venetian merchants and mercenaries returning home and bringing foreign habits with them. The vernacular literature took many generations to move away from classical and vulgar Latin to what we would recognize as Italian today.

2. Because of a well developed guild system (especially in the north), a good number of Italian armorers working over the past 5-odd centuries has been documented. Some early makers of plate armor are known only by their initials, but their distinguishing marks have been recorded and we can date their products stylistically. Modern authors have done a lot to make this info available to us. For a general intro, Enzio Malatesta's Armi ed Armaioli d'Italia (Rome, 1946) is comprehensive and is occasionally available at auction. Carlo deVita's Armaioli Romani (Rome, 1970) covers just the region of Latium. For firearms, there is a wealth of info in Der Neue Stöckel and in Nolfo di Carpegna's Brescian Firearms (hooray, at last a book in English! , Rome, 1997)

3. There was a lot of specialization in the pre-industrial Italian arms manufacturing trade, fine arms were often designed and put together by gunsmiths and cutlers using components sourced from special artisans known to them and their customers. Certain towns with their guilds sometimes specialized in the extreme: Caino, Bergamo, and Belluno were famed for their blade workshops, their products sent to Milan, Venice, and all over to be hilted. Celalba, in the Papal States, was known for flintlocks of a specific design. Pistoia (from which the word pistol is supposedly derived) mostly made gun barrels, and lots of them.

4. Andrea Ferrara .. legendary, almost iconic especially in the universe of Scottish broadswords! Yet as enigmatic in his own way, as the Passau wolf. Worthy of a separate forum thread. How 'bout it , Jim?

[Philip]

Originally Posted by fernando

So interesting; to the point in that, the term storta (twisted, unstraight) possibly an allusion to this sword guard, made a career in dictionaries, as nowadays attributed to a scimitar or a cutlass.

Nando, that is an interesting explanation and yes, many of the examples you see in person and in publications have a characteristic S shape to the quillons. But Gotti's book which I referred to previously, contains several examples of storte which have D shaped knucklebows with crab claws below; one even incorporates a shell guard for good measure.

If one translation of storta is "unstraight", or perhaps bent, could that refer to the distinct curvature of the single-edged blades, or at least the increasing arc of the edge as it goes into the "bowie-knife-type" tip? Consider that these weapons first appeared in a culture which throughout the Middle Ages and at the dawn of the Renaissance was pretty much wedded to the notion of a straight blade -- even the single edged backsword shape (mezza spada) had a point that was more or less in-line to the central axis of the blade itself.