What can you tell me about this sword?

ariel · 16th September 2019, 04:09 PM

Marius,
To summarize your perfectly accurate post, there is a sharp line between "fake" and " reproduction": intent to deceive.
From there on, dividing lines become more and more blurry: "reproduction" vs. " composite", " composite" vs. " restored" etc.
The majority of genuinely old Indian sword are "composite", as convincingly demonstrated by Elgood: blade and handle do not coincide. That does not disqualify them from being genuine if the "marriage" occured during working life of the sword. The same is true about scabbards: original ones rarely survive 200-300 years, and may be of a third or tenth generation. But what about recently replaced Indian handle? Is it legitimate composition ( this is exactly what the old owners did!) or something more sinister? "Restored" depends on the degree of restoration: excavated swords require active involvement to prevent disintegration. But I have seen allegedly genuine excavated swords "preserved" with tannate, but with perfectly sharp complex edges, obviously untouched by rusting.

Important to remember that many old museum paintings and frescoes were "restored" ( Sistine Chapel!), that perfectly white ancient Greek marble statues were originally garishly painted, and that some were reassembled and re-glued.

IMHO, at the end of the day, the intent to deceive is what counts.

Rick · 16th September 2019, 09:32 PM

I would like to add that in this entire discussion we have not seen a single picture of this sword in its entirety.
Why is that?

ariel · 17th September 2019, 02:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

I would like to add that in this entire discussion we have not seen a single picture of this sword in its entirety.
Why is that?

We have.
Go to post #1, there is an address, left column, 2nd pic from the top.

The view is not great, but this is the whole caboodle.

ariel · 17th September 2019, 03:00 AM

Eric,
I understand you are upset. But nobody criticizes you personally: it is about the sword.
All of us sooner or later find ourselves in your shoes. Collectors much more knowledgeable than all of us combined and surrounded by expensive advisers bought antique pieces for millions of dollars .. that later on were shown to be expensive forgeries worth less than their boxes.
Your shashka may end up being authentic: we just see pics, no more.

The only thing I am personally saying is that I do not like it and wouldn’t buy it.
You may follow my ( and other) hunches or may ignore them.
It just not good getting impolite.

erikmarko · 17th September 2019, 03:42 AM

Hey Guys, I'm not upset at you at all and all of you have a right to your opinion. I just would like those of you who are 100% convinced that it's a fake to point out why they are so sure that it's fake. When a Russian Collector says that he thinks it's 90% authentic I respect that because you need to touch it and see it in person to be sure, that's all. This thing whether it's real or not cost me nothing because someone bought it for me. I don't have any intention to sell it and it looks great hanging over my fireplace. If in fact it is authentic it would be cool and I thought that I would find a professional collectors on this forum that would be able to tell me that.

Here is a full pic of the shashka if you guys are not sick of looking at it yet...

Rick · 17th September 2019, 05:23 AM

We don't have a full picture uploaded to the database; only a link from what I can see.

Links have a way of disappearing.

mahratt · 17th September 2019, 02:27 PM

Hi Eric.

Write me a private message on the forum. Unfortunately for some reason I can not send you a message

17th September 2019, 03:42 AM	#5
erikmarko Member Join Date: Sep 2019 Posts: 14	Hey Guys, I'm not upset at you at all and all of you have a right to your opinion. I just would like those of you who are 100% convinced that it's a fake to point out why they are so sure that it's fake. When a Russian Collector says that he thinks it's 90% authentic I respect that because you need to touch it and see it in person to be sure, that's all. This thing whether it's real or not cost me nothing because someone bought it for me. I don't have any intention to sell it and it looks great hanging over my fireplace. If in fact it is authentic it would be cool and I thought that I would find a professional collectors on this forum that would be able to tell me that. Here is a full pic of the shashka if you guys are not sick of looking at it yet... Attached Images

16th September 2019, 04:09 PM	#1
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Marius, To summarize your perfectly accurate post, there is a sharp line between "fake" and " reproduction": intent to deceive. From there on, dividing lines become more and more blurry: "reproduction" vs. " composite", " composite" vs. " restored" etc. The majority of genuinely old Indian sword are "composite", as convincingly demonstrated by Elgood: blade and handle do not coincide. That does not disqualify them from being genuine if the "marriage" occured during working life of the sword. The same is true about scabbards: original ones rarely survive 200-300 years, and may be of a third or tenth generation. But what about recently replaced Indian handle? Is it legitimate composition ( this is exactly what the old owners did!) or something more sinister? "Restored" depends on the degree of restoration: excavated swords require active involvement to prevent disintegration. But I have seen allegedly genuine excavated swords "preserved" with tannate, but with perfectly sharp complex edges, obviously untouched by rusting. Important to remember that many old museum paintings and frescoes were "restored" ( Sistine Chapel!), that perfectly white ancient Greek marble statues were originally garishly painted, and that some were reassembled and re-glued. IMHO, at the end of the day, the intent to deceive is what counts.

16th September 2019, 09:32 PM	#2
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,336	I would like to add that in this entire discussion we have not seen a single picture of this sword in its entirety. Why is that?

17th September 2019, 03:00 AM	#4
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Eric, I understand you are upset. But nobody criticizes you personally: it is about the sword. All of us sooner or later find ourselves in your shoes. Collectors much more knowledgeable than all of us combined and surrounded by expensive advisers bought antique pieces for millions of dollars .. that later on were shown to be expensive forgeries worth less than their boxes. Your shashka may end up being authentic: we just see pics, no more. The only thing I am personally saying is that I do not like it and wouldn’t buy it. You may follow my ( and other) hunches or may ignore them. It just not good getting impolite.

17th September 2019, 05:23 AM	#6
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,336	We don't have a full picture uploaded to the database; only a link from what I can see. Links have a way of disappearing.

17th September 2019, 02:27 PM	#7
mahratt Member Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Russia Posts: 1,042	Hi Eric. Write me a private message on the forum. Unfortunately for some reason I can not send you a message