What can you tell me about this sword?

[erikmarko]

Originally Posted by ariel

In my guesstimate there is a great contrast between a high quality of the handle and an atrocious blade.
Caucasian masters often imitated classic decorations of the highly valued German blades, and necessarily left some clues indicating the forgery.
But this one beats them all! It is beyond poor, it is childish.

I have a great difficulty to believe that a high-class master of the handle chose such a low-quality blade for a whole ensemble. I am also not sure about another point: even though we cannot see the entire shashka, it seems to me that the axis of the handle does not coincide with the axis of the blade. At least in Indian swords this suggests that the blade was remounted.

Overall, I would rather entertain a notion that it was a recent shotgun marriage of convenience. And would not exclude the possibility that the blade was made recently and aged artificially.

I might be wrong, but the opinion of a Russian expert is also only 90%, which is not reassuring: it is safely within the 2SD range:-)))))


In short, I would not buy it . If the Russian expert wishes to acquire it, my inclination would be to get rid of it.

Hey ARIEL, you are telling me that engraving on my shashka looks childish... So check out this pic... Does this look any better than first grader's drawing or what is on my sword?

[corrado26]

Originally Posted by erikmarko

...... you are telling me that engraving on my shashka looks childish... So check out this pic... Does this look any better than first grader's drawing or what is on my sword?

For me the sword of the foto in post #30 comes from the same source as yours. Sorry, I take even this one for a bad fake. And if you have a Russian collector who wants to have it, sell it immediately.
corrado26

[erikmarko]

Originally Posted by corrado26

For me the sword of the foto in post #30 comes from the same source as yours. Sorry, I take even this one for a bad fake. And if you have a Russian collector who wants to have it, sell it immediately.
corrado26

What the heck are you taking about... The pictures where found on the page of the guy who restores shashkas http://arco-iris.com/George/russian_arms.htm

Go have a read and educate yourself. And there are no pictures of my sword on that site.

[Ren Ren]

Originally Posted by corrado26

And if you have a Russian collector who wants to have it, sell it immediately.
corrado26

I think this is a reasonable opinion and it is worth considering.

[ariel]

Originally Posted by Ren Ren

I think this is a reasonable opinion and it is worth considering.

On that we are in full agreement:-)

And, just as Sfenoid13, I am also interested how much the Russian collector will offer.

[David]

I realize this is a layman's question, this type of sword being completely out of my spheres of collection, but would a light etch reveal anything here?
I am a little skeptical of what appears to be the appearance of some kind of twisted core. I would think such a etch might answer some questions about whether it is pattern welded or not.

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by David

I realize this is a layman's question, this type of sword being completely out of my spheres of collection, but would a light etch reveal anything here?
I am a little skeptical of what appears to be the appearance of some kind of twisted core. I would think such a etch might answer some questions about whether it is pattern welded or not.

That's a good observation, and myself very much a layman at the metallurgic properties of blades, I thought I cold see some kind of pattern in this blade as well. While Ariel would offer better insight into this, weren't the Russians producing 'bulat', a kind of watered steel at Zlatoust in first quarter 19th c?
The style of this blade and that character as well as the Nicholas II device in the hilt to me offers a bit more integrity to this shashka.

[Edster]

The blade scratchings shown in #6 as well as #30 attributed to c. 1550 Solingen are remindful to the somewhat tacky marks of Sudanese kaskara intended to invoke German quality or Islamic spiritual essence. IMHO I would think that a Nicholas II signature grip would be paired with a higher class blade without crude marks.

REgards,
Ed

[mross]

There is definitely some kind of pattern visible in the pics. From the pics though it is difficult to impossible to tell what kind. It does not look like wootz, or twist core. It could be a pattern welded blade or it could be etched. A light polish and etching would help determine the pattern. Please note; I am saying this from a pattern identification standpoint, as I am unfamiliar with these blades I do not know if a polish/etch is appropriate or blasphemy.

[erikmarko]

Hey guys, I have some good news for you, well bad for some of you...

I have sent bunch of hi res pictures of my shashka to a real Russian collector and researcher in these weapons and this is what he said...

Hi Erik!
The sword is authentic 1890’s shashka with a blade of Caucasian origin. N2 cypher was added after 1910 year. Silver - work of daghestanian craftman. Blade - bit earlier, daghestanian or Georgian (most probably).
All the best

I'm not sure what he means by N2 Cypher but everything else sounds good to me.

[ariel]

The last person to make wootz blades was Elizarov, and that was long before NII:-) Virtually all shashka blades are plain steel ( too expensive to make mechanical damascus, as per local masters). There are very few mechanical damascus kindjals, and the pattern is easily visible. Gurian kindjals of high quality had beautiful "Tiflis damascus" exclusively within the fullers.
Etching was widespead.
All in all, the likelihood of finding anything but plain steel in that blade is close to zero.

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by ariel

The last person to make wootz blades was Elizarov, and that was long before NII:-) Virtually all shashka blades are plain steel ( too expensive to make mechanical damascus, as per local masters). There are very few mechanical damascus kindjals, and the pattern is easily visible. Gurian kindjals of high quality had beautiful "Tiflis damascus" exclusively within the fullers.
Etching was widespead.
All in all, the likelihood of finding anything but plain steel in that blade is close to zero.

Thank you for coming in on this Ariel, as I know you know the topic of wootz etc. especially in Russia well. I am unclear on the 'bulat' that I mentioned, which as I understand is a form of pattern welding (?) but has characteristics of mechanical Damascus (?).
I was under the impression that there was a maker at Zlatoust trying to reproduce the character of wootz in the 1830s and this was the source of bulat in some blades.
I am likely not describing this well, so hoping for your elucidation on this.

Is it possible that this may have been a sabre blade made in the early 19th century and in circumstances I have mentioned, and perhaps remounted in the present hilt later?
I know that the Russians were very big on heirloom and especially trophy blades, which were often remounted in more contemporary hilts. Somewhere in the archives I have a Russian book with many of these (it will take some excavation to find it!).

Perhaps an officer or official in the time of Nicholas II had such a blade and had it remounted? much in the manner of the Caucasian shashkas being copied in the ranks of the officers of the Russian military (as described in Mollo, "Russian Military Swords"). The attempt at reproducing the well known cosmological groupings often seen on earlier European blades may have been genuinely placed in a commemorative sense, despite the less than adept rendering.