What can you tell me about this sword?

ariel · 15th September 2019, 05:54 PM

Yes, you did.
My point is that we should either have facts regarding authenticity or non-authenticity of an object or refrain of expressing definitive opinions (often based on photographs) and go with our gut feeling, i.e. voting with out wallets.

Sounds simple.

erikmarko · 15th September 2019, 06:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

In my guesstimate there is a great contrast between a high quality of the handle and an atrocious blade.
Caucasian masters often imitated classic decorations of the highly valued German blades, and necessarily left some clues indicating the forgery.
But this one beats them all! It is beyond poor, it is childish.

I have a great difficulty to believe that a high-class master of the handle chose such a low-quality blade for a whole ensemble. I am also not sure about another point: even though we cannot see the entire shashka, it seems to me that the axis of the handle does not coincide with the axis of the blade. At least in Indian swords this suggests that the blade was remounted.

Overall, I would rather entertain a notion that it was a recent shotgun marriage of convenience. And would not exclude the possibility that the blade was made recently and aged artificially.

I might be wrong, but the opinion of a Russian expert is also only 90%, which is not reassuring: it is safely within the 2SD range:-)))))

In short, I would not buy it . If the Russian expert wishes to acquire it, my inclination would be to get rid of it.

Hey ARIEL, you are telling me that engraving on my shashka looks childish... So check out this pic... Does this look any better than first grader's drawing or what is on my sword?

corrado26 · 16th September 2019, 09:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by erikmarko

...... you are telling me that engraving on my shashka looks childish... So check out this pic... Does this look any better than first grader's drawing or what is on my sword?

For me the sword of the foto in post #30 comes from the same source as yours. Sorry, I take even this one for a bad fake. And if you have a Russian collector who wants to have it, sell it immediately.
corrado26

erikmarko · 16th September 2019, 09:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by corrado26

For me the sword of the foto in post #30 comes from the same source as yours. Sorry, I take even this one for a bad fake. And if you have a Russian collector who wants to have it, sell it immediately.
corrado26

What the heck are you taking about... The pictures where found on the page of the guy who restores shashkas http://arco-iris.com/George/russian_arms.htm

Go have a read and educate yourself. And there are no pictures of my sword on that site.

Ren Ren · 16th September 2019, 10:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by corrado26

And if you have a Russian collector who wants to have it, sell it immediately.
corrado26

I think this is a reasonable opinion and it is worth considering.

ariel · 16th September 2019, 01:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ren Ren

I think this is a reasonable opinion and it is worth considering.

On that we are in full agreement:-)

And, just as Sfenoid13, I am also interested how much the Russian collector will offer.

David · 17th September 2019, 11:51 PM

I realize this is a layman's question, this type of sword being completely out of my spheres of collection, but would a light etch reveal anything here?
I am a little skeptical of what appears to be the appearance of some kind of twisted core. I would think such a etch might answer some questions about whether it is pattern welded or not.

Jim McDougall · 18th September 2019, 03:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

I realize this is a layman's question, this type of sword being completely out of my spheres of collection, but would a light etch reveal anything here?
I am a little skeptical of what appears to be the appearance of some kind of twisted core. I would think such a etch might answer some questions about whether it is pattern welded or not.

That's a good observation, and myself very much a layman at the metallurgic properties of blades, I thought I cold see some kind of pattern in this blade as well. While Ariel would offer better insight into this, weren't the Russians producing 'bulat', a kind of watered steel at Zlatoust in first quarter 19th c?
The style of this blade and that character as well as the Nicholas II device in the hilt to me offers a bit more integrity to this shashka.

Edster · 18th September 2019, 04:02 AM

The blade scratchings shown in #6 as well as #30 attributed to c. 1550 Solingen are remindful to the somewhat tacky marks of Sudanese kaskara intended to invoke German quality or Islamic spiritual essence. IMHO I would think that a Nicholas II signature grip would be paired with a higher class blade without crude marks.

REgards,
Ed

mross · 18th September 2019, 03:57 PM

There is definitely some kind of pattern visible in the pics. From the pics though it is difficult to impossible to tell what kind. It does not look like wootz, or twist core. It could be a pattern welded blade or it could be etched. A light polish and etching would help determine the pattern. Please note; I am saying this from a pattern identification standpoint, as I am unfamiliar with these blades I do not know if a polish/etch is appropriate or blasphemy.

erikmarko · 18th September 2019, 05:06 PM

Hey guys, I have some good news for you, well bad for some of you...

I have sent bunch of hi res pictures of my shashka to a real Russian collector and researcher in these weapons and this is what he said...

Hi Erik!
The sword is authentic 1890’s shashka with a blade of Caucasian origin. N2 cypher was added after 1910 year. Silver - work of daghestanian craftman. Blade - bit earlier, daghestanian or Georgian (most probably).
All the best

I'm not sure what he means by N2 Cypher but everything else sounds good to me.

ariel · 18th September 2019, 05:30 PM

The last person to make wootz blades was Elizarov, and that was long before NII:-) Virtually all shashka blades are plain steel ( too expensive to make mechanical damascus, as per local masters). There are very few mechanical damascus kindjals, and the pattern is easily visible. Gurian kindjals of high quality had beautiful "Tiflis damascus" exclusively within the fullers.
Etching was widespead.
All in all, the likelihood of finding anything but plain steel in that blade is close to zero.

Ren Ren · 15th September 2019, 09:52 PM

Perhaps I didn’t quite correctly understand your idea. But we are at an international forum, even a global one. And forum participants only in rare cases have the opportunity to see objects with their own eyes and hold in their hands before discussing them. In the vast majority of cases, the opinion of the participants is based on a photo and confidence in their own right.
In addition, I have come across many times that people stubbornly and shamelessly defend their erroneous opinion for one single reason - they had the misfortune to vote for this opinion with their own wallet

I think that you are aware of such cases more than one.

ariel · 16th September 2019, 12:06 AM

All of us here are called to express their opinion based on photographic images. This is a big limitation, no doubt.
And you are correct: the urge to defend their choice is inherent in human psychology. That’s why many people stick to their abusive or drug-addicted spouses.

Ren Ren · 16th September 2019, 08:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

All of us here are called to express their opinion based on photographic images. This is a big limitation, no doubt.
And you are correct: the urge to defend their choice is inherent in human psychology. That’s why many people stick to their abusive or drug-addicted spouses.

Oh yeah! I met collectors for whom their items were closer and more expensive than children and spouses. This has a lot in common with drug addiction

Drabant1701 · 16th September 2019, 08:48 AM

Greetings Eric,
I am no expert in russian swords so I can not tell you if its real or a reproduction. I do hovever think that the provenance of the sword might help in determining if it its the real deal. There is a big difference between finding it in in the attic of someone who was an officer in the imperial russian army and buying it on E-bay from India.

I must say if its a reproduction it looks very authentic. I have however seen a large italian auction house sell several reproduction shashka (described as second half of the 20th century) that looked pretty old and authentic to my untrained eye

erikmarko · 16th September 2019, 09:09 AM

Hi Drabant, the sword was bought at some small flea market on the west coast of Canada. We do have a quite a few Russian immigrants. The interesting thing about the sword is that the entire blade was covered in thick gunky substances I guess to protect it from rusting. So we did not really knew what the blade looked like all we saw was the hilt that got our attention. I'm thinking that if the sword was fake and someone wanted it to look old they would not cover it in the gunky stuff to protect it from rusting.

ariel · 16th September 2019, 01:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drabant1701

Greetings Eric,
I am no expert in russian swords so I can not tell you if its real or a reproduction. I do hovever think that the provenance of the sword might help in determining if it its the real deal. There is a big difference between finding it in in the attic of someone who was an officer in the imperial russian army and buying it on E-bay from India.

I must say if its a reproduction it looks very authentic. I have however seen a large italian auction house sell several reproduction shashka (described as second half of the 20th century) that looked pretty old and authentic to my untrained eye

Getting provenance data from a seller may be intriguing: any self-respecting dealer in forgeries has at least 3 versions ready. At least two will include personal friendship with Ivan the Terrible and Peter the Great.

By the way, my son just came back from Georgia ( he climbed Mount Kazbek) and sent me pics of unending street stalls in Tbilisi with dozens of kindjals and shashkas for sale.

mariusgmioc · 16th September 2019, 03:28 PM

Genuine, traditional Katanas are made as we speak, and they are neither fakes, nor reproductions. Moreover, most of them cost more than 90% of the antique katanas on the market.

High quality Omani Khanjars are made as we speak and sold in the souk of Muscat. And they are neither fake, nor reproductions.

Stuning Indonesian krisses are made as we speak and many of them are much more expensive that the vast majority of antique kerises, and they are neither fake, nor reproductions.

So let us set things straight:
if a blade is of modern manufacture, that doesn't make it neither fake, nor a reproduction!

A "fake" is something made with the intention to deceive, and isn't necessarily of modern manufacture.

There are many "fake" 16th century katanas made by more or less obscure swordsmiths but signed with famous names of the period. However, such a sword is considered a "fake" ONLY if it is sold as a genuine masterpiece of the famous swordsmith. If the very same sword is sold openly as "gimei" (with fake signatue), it can fetch good money and would not be considered "fake" (but just the signature).

One can sell a magnificent 19th century rapier without being considered a fake, but a piece of the "historicism". Yet, if the same rapier is sold as a genuine 16th century piece, instantly it becomes a fake.

Now with regards to reproductions, the term may be equally ambiguous but I consider a reproduction, an object which looks like the original but cannot function (or will function improperly) like the original.

So you can have a Chinese made katana, of stainless steel with no cutting edge, that looks great to be hanged on the wall but cannot cut a sheet of paper. That would be a reproduction.

But if you have a razor sharp Chinese katana, made of high quality steel that can cut like an 16th century original (albeit they quite often cut much better), then I wouldn't call it a reproduction.

Just a few thoughts...

18th September 2019, 05:06 PM	#11
erikmarko Member Join Date: Sep 2019 Posts: 14	Hey guys, I have some good news for you, well bad for some of you... I have sent bunch of hi res pictures of my shashka to a real Russian collector and researcher in these weapons and this is what he said... Hi Erik! The sword is authentic 1890’s shashka with a blade of Caucasian origin. N2 cypher was added after 1910 year. Silver - work of daghestanian craftman. Blade - bit earlier, daghestanian or Georgian (most probably). All the best I'm not sure what he means by N2 Cypher but everything else sounds good to me. Last edited by erikmarko; 19th September 2019 at 05:05 AM.

16th September 2019, 08:48 AM	#16
Drabant1701 Member Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: Sweden Posts: 181	Greetings Eric, I am no expert in russian swords so I can not tell you if its real or a reproduction. I do hovever think that the provenance of the sword might help in determining if it its the real deal. There is a big difference between finding it in in the attic of someone who was an officer in the imperial russian army and buying it on E-bay from India. I must say if its a reproduction it looks very authentic. I have however seen a large italian auction house sell several reproduction shashka (described as second half of the 20th century) that looked pretty old and authentic to my untrained eye Last edited by Drabant1701; 16th September 2019 at 09:03 AM.

15th September 2019, 05:54 PM	#1
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Yes, you did. My point is that we should either have facts regarding authenticity or non-authenticity of an object or refrain of expressing definitive opinions (often based on photographs) and go with our gut feeling, i.e. voting with out wallets. Sounds simple.

17th September 2019, 11:51 PM	#7
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,219	I realize this is a layman's question, this type of sword being completely out of my spheres of collection, but would a light etch reveal anything here? I am a little skeptical of what appears to be the appearance of some kind of twisted core. I would think such a etch might answer some questions about whether it is pattern welded or not.

18th September 2019, 04:02 AM	#9
Edster Member Join Date: Oct 2010 Posts: 415	The blade scratchings shown in #6 as well as #30 attributed to c. 1550 Solingen are remindful to the somewhat tacky marks of Sudanese kaskara intended to invoke German quality or Islamic spiritual essence. IMHO I would think that a Nicholas II signature grip would be paired with a higher class blade without crude marks. REgards, Ed

18th September 2019, 03:57 PM	#10
mross Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 478	There is definitely some kind of pattern visible in the pics. From the pics though it is difficult to impossible to tell what kind. It does not look like wootz, or twist core. It could be a pattern welded blade or it could be etched. A light polish and etching would help determine the pattern. Please note; I am saying this from a pattern identification standpoint, as I am unfamiliar with these blades I do not know if a polish/etch is appropriate or blasphemy.

18th September 2019, 05:30 PM	#12
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	The last person to make wootz blades was Elizarov, and that was long before NII:-) Virtually all shashka blades are plain steel ( too expensive to make mechanical damascus, as per local masters). There are very few mechanical damascus kindjals, and the pattern is easily visible. Gurian kindjals of high quality had beautiful "Tiflis damascus" exclusively within the fullers. Etching was widespead. All in all, the likelihood of finding anything but plain steel in that blade is close to zero.

15th September 2019, 09:52 PM	#13
Ren Ren Member Join Date: Jun 2011 Location: Russia, Moscow Posts: 379	Perhaps I didn’t quite correctly understand your idea. But we are at an international forum, even a global one. And forum participants only in rare cases have the opportunity to see objects with their own eyes and hold in their hands before discussing them. In the vast majority of cases, the opinion of the participants is based on a photo and confidence in their own right. In addition, I have come across many times that people stubbornly and shamelessly defend their erroneous opinion for one single reason - they had the misfortune to vote for this opinion with their own wallet I think that you are aware of such cases more than one.

16th September 2019, 12:06 AM	#14
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	All of us here are called to express their opinion based on photographic images. This is a big limitation, no doubt. And you are correct: the urge to defend their choice is inherent in human psychology. That’s why many people stick to their abusive or drug-addicted spouses.

16th September 2019, 09:09 AM	#17
erikmarko Member Join Date: Sep 2019 Posts: 14	Hi Drabant, the sword was bought at some small flea market on the west coast of Canada. We do have a quite a few Russian immigrants. The interesting thing about the sword is that the entire blade was covered in thick gunky substances I guess to protect it from rusting. So we did not really knew what the blade looked like all we saw was the hilt that got our attention. I'm thinking that if the sword was fake and someone wanted it to look old they would not cover it in the gunky stuff to protect it from rusting.

16th September 2019, 03:28 PM	#19
mariusgmioc Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: Austria Posts: 1,911	Genuine, traditional Katanas are made as we speak, and they are neither fakes, nor reproductions. Moreover, most of them cost more than 90% of the antique katanas on the market. High quality Omani Khanjars are made as we speak and sold in the souk of Muscat. And they are neither fake, nor reproductions. Stuning Indonesian krisses are made as we speak and many of them are much more expensive that the vast majority of antique kerises, and they are neither fake, nor reproductions. So let us set things straight: if a blade is of modern manufacture, that doesn't make it neither fake, nor a reproduction! A "fake" is something made with the intention to deceive, and isn't necessarily of modern manufacture. There are many "fake" 16th century katanas made by more or less obscure swordsmiths but signed with famous names of the period. However, such a sword is considered a "fake" ONLY if it is sold as a genuine masterpiece of the famous swordsmith. If the very same sword is sold openly as "gimei" (with fake signatue), it can fetch good money and would not be considered "fake" (but just the signature). One can sell a magnificent 19th century rapier without being considered a fake, but a piece of the "historicism". Yet, if the same rapier is sold as a genuine 16th century piece, instantly it becomes a fake. Now with regards to reproductions, the term may be equally ambiguous but I consider a reproduction, an object which looks like the original but cannot function (or will function improperly) like the original. So you can have a Chinese made katana, of stainless steel with no cutting edge, that looks great to be hanged on the wall but cannot cut a sheet of paper. That would be a reproduction. But if you have a razor sharp Chinese katana, made of high quality steel that can cut like an 16th century original (albeit they quite often cut much better), then I wouldn't call it a reproduction. Just a few thoughts...