Yemeni sword

Jim McDougall · 24th August 2019, 09:25 PM

You're right Kubur, this is a fun, and challenging discussion.
I think the case for these spherical pommel, shouldered or flared guard integral with grip swords being Yemeni is of course well known.
However, I don't think that it has been implied that somehow a Bukharen sword was brought back to Yemen, and suddenly all the Yemenis wanted such 'Bukharen' swords.

The point desperately trying to be made here is that this form of hilt was widely adopted THROUGHOUT the Dar al Islam, and examples in Bukhara, as well as through CENTRAL ASIA reflect the same styling.

While many of these examples are indeed Yemeni, they did not hold an exclusive patent on the design, and as often occurs, the influences did apparently diffuse via trade, diplomatic and other channels throughout regions from Arabia, the Middle East and Central Asia.

To reiterate, Bukhara was not the SOURCE of the designs, but ONE of the many regions which in varying degree adopted them.

In "Arts of the Muslim Knight" (ed. Bashir Mohammed) I attach three examples which show the collared hilt and spherical pommels and are identified as Central Asian and from 9th century. These are remarkably similar to the 'Yemeni' examples ; the Auctions Imperial example identified as 19th c. Bukharen; and others.

In "Two Swords from the Foundations of Gibraltar" by David Nicolle, the attached plate (#28) shows a bronze sword as late 10th, early 11th c. from a shipwreck and it is noted to likely be from Armenia or Azerbijian.
In the same article, a sword with remarkably similar style hilt is shown as Roman, 2nd c. AD.

So my question is, is it possible that the styling of these hilts developed from a quite ancient form or group of similar hilt features, became popularly known, and were adopted in numerous cultural spheres ?

So we are not saying that these hilts or affectations come FROM Bukharen influence, only that Central Asia apparently SHARED them, just as Yemen did.

Kubur · 25th August 2019, 09:34 AM

Thank you Jim for your precise and so well documented response as always

To your question

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

is it possible that the styling of these hilts developed from a quite ancient form or group of similar hilt features, became popularly known, and were adopted in numerous cultural spheres ?

IMHO I'll say yes of course.

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ghlight=mamluk

Iain · 26th August 2019, 01:40 PM

These hilt styles, often made with cast parts and a "cuff" extension over the blade are part of a larger family with roots in central Asia. Similar hilts can be seen on reliefs documented in Bishapur and dated to the reign of the Sasanian ruler Shapur I (241-272). I have seen some speculation there may be a Chinese influence but I have not ever seen anything convincing on that front.

Regardless, by the 9th century, this general form can be encountered throughout the Byzantine Empire as well, including areas of influence like Ukraine and Bulgaria.

As has been already pointed out on this thread, within the Islamic world the form also became widespread including within Mamluk arms. The basic form typically sees a metal cylindrical grip, often multi-faceted, a separate pommel and a narrow guard, often with a "cuff". The components are often secured with brazing.

These are an important overarching form which sees regional variations from central Asia, to Europe to Africa. The Yemeni examples are of course simply a long-surviving branch within the family tree.

ariel · 26th August 2019, 04:50 PM

Is the " Omani battlesword" a member of the same Central Asian family or a traditional double-edged straight sword of pre-Islamic/early-Islamic "Aravian" weapon? Did straight early Egyptian Mamluk swords with bulbous pommels come from Bukhara ( Khiva, Samarkand etc)?

TVV · 26th August 2019, 11:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iain

Regardless, by the 9th century, this general form can be encountered throughout the Byzantine Empire as well, including areas of influence like Ukraine and Bulgaria.

Byzantine influence on Bulgaria is undeniable in almost all aspects of culture, especially after the conversion to Christianity in 864 AD. However, when it comes to arms and armor it was usually the Eastern Roman Empire adopting the weapons and tactics of its neighbors and enemies, many of which at one point or another found themselves in the armies of the Basileus as mercenaries.

Here is the sword from the Malaya Pereshchepina burial, associated with Khan Kubrat of Great Bulgaria before Danube Bulgaria was formed. The hilt is basically a tube made of gold, with the ring pommel typical of earlier steppe swords. It is very much a "cuff" hilt design.

Back to the topic, from Al Kindi we know that Yemen was a major sword producing center at the height of the Abbasid power - in fact, he considers the Yemeni blades superior to pretty much all others. Unfortunately he does not give detailed descriptions of the hilts, but the way the blade size and shapes are described they are very close to the older Omani saifs. Yemen's relative isolation explains why an archaic broadsword form may have survived there longer than anywhere else, along with perhaps areas in North Africa where the saif badawi and its derivatives made it to the 20th century.

In contrast, Central Asia was anything but isolated, and its arms evolution much more rapid, with the saber becoming the dominant form by the 10th-11th centuries, if not even earlier.

ariel · 27th August 2019, 12:39 AM

Double posting, sorry.

ariel · 27th August 2019, 12:58 AM

I cannot judge Bulgarian/ Bysantine relations, but I trust Teodor’s knowledge and judgement.

As to the Yemeni/ Omani weapons, I have already fully agreed with him based on the same considerations. These “ Bukharan” swords do not look more than 200 years old at the most, and I am unaware of anything similar in Russian museums coming out of Central Asia despite their full control of that area since mid-19th century and even despite multiple lavish gifts of the local Khans and Emirs to the Tsar: they sent khandjars and shamshirs with Persian wootz blades and gold handles. I can fully believe that similar swords might have belonged to the Sassanian era, but after that, Persians ( the main influence on Central Asia) rapidly switched to curved sabers. To the point that they had to invent “revival swords” in the 19th.
My money is on South Aravia, Yemen especially.

Iain · 27th August 2019, 07:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TVV

Byzantine influence on Bulgaria is undeniable in almost all aspects of culture, especially after the conversion to Christianity in 864 AD. However, when it comes to arms and armor it was usually the Eastern Roman Empire adopting the weapons and tactics of its neighbors and enemies, many of which at one point or another found themselves in the armies of the Basileus as mercenaries.

Agreed, my point was simply that in a broader sense, these hilts were being found within these areas. One was even discovered in Poland a few years ago.

Returning a little closer to Yemen, similar hilts also turned up in Dongola, from the Makuria kingdom, clearly depicted in murals. I'm attaching an example here. The form is extremely similar right down to heavily engraved metalwork on the guard.

I see no reason to doubt a Yemeni attribution, these swords very much fit into a pattern of hilts found in the region for a thousand years.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 27th August 2019, 12:08 PM

Thanks to all involved so far and the excellent art works attached on the broad likelihood of influence involving the various swords mentioned .

I noted earlier that the Mamluke weapons some illustrated in Yemeni museums have the sweeping wide shoulders similar to the project weapon and show that here..

The clearly later recruit to this form may well be the group of 4 weapons below with apparently later back street hilts but built in a similar fashion but added here for interest.

Yemeni Jewish decorative hilts are often found on weapons pre the Jewish exodus of 1949 as depicted in the knife hilts shown below..

Jim McDougall · 28th August 2019, 12:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TVV

Byzantine influence on Bulgaria is undeniable in almost all aspects of culture, especially after the conversion to Christianity in 864 AD. However, when it comes to arms and armor it was usually the Eastern Roman Empire adopting the weapons and tactics of its neighbors and enemies, many of which at one point or another found themselves in the armies of the Basileus as mercenaries.

Here is the sword from the Malaya Pereshchepina burial, associated with Khan Kubrat of Great Bulgaria before Danube Bulgaria was formed. The hilt is basically a tube made of gold, with the ring pommel typical of earlier steppe swords. It is very much a "cuff" hilt design.

Back to the topic, from Al Kindi we know that Yemen was a major sword producing center at the height of the Abbasid power - in fact, he considers the Yemeni blades superior to pretty much all others. Unfortunately he does not give detailed descriptions of the hilts, but the way the blade size and shapes are described they are very close to the older Omani saifs. Yemen's relative isolation explains why an archaic broadsword form may have survived there longer than anywhere else, along with perhaps areas in North Africa where the saif badawi and its derivatives made it to the 20th century.

In contrast, Central Asia was anything but isolated, and its arms evolution much more rapid, with the saber becoming the dominant form by the 10th-11th centuries, if not even earlier.

This is the 'Pereshchepina' sword written on in " On The Principles of Reconstruction of the Pereshchepina Sword" by Z. Lvova and A. Seminov
in "Arkheologicesksya Sbornik" Vol. 26, 1985.
It was discovered in what is described as a burial vault near Poltava in Ukraine, however no human remains were apparently found.

While this is believed to have been a gift from Byzantium to Khan Kubrat, it is interesting that the ring pommel style is remarkably similar to these featured on Chinese cavalry swords of Sui dynasty (589-628AD) and T'ang dynasty (618-906AD) well known in LoYang, Honan province, China.
The Pereshchepina sword appears 7th century and has Greek inscription.
Stephen Grancsay in 1930 wrote that there were examples of ring pommel swords with gilt hilts in these Chinese contexts (I do not have access to the article presently).

I would think this suggests the kind of diplomatic interchange across these territorial boundaries in which various elemental styles and features were diffused over vast distances and over long periods of time.

While this example IS in a Russian museum (Hermitage, St.Petersburg), therefore presumably viable as an example in this discussion, it reflects more the influences of the east and the Steppes in hilt features more than the 'cuff' design on hilts we are reviewing.
It is a fascinating example, and one that I have long considered intriguing among these swords well described in "The Long Sword and Scabbard Slide in Asia", Trousdale, Smithsonian, 1975).

Thank you Teodor for adding this here, it is great to see again!

Jim McDougall · 28th August 2019, 01:14 AM

With reference to Ibrahiim post #51, in "Arts of the Muslim Knight" (Furissiya, ed. Bashir Mohamed, 2008) these two swords shown are most pertinent to examples he has posted.

The first (p.37, #8) is a Samanid sword of 8th-9th century. It is noted swords with these U shape scabbard mounts excavated at Pendzhikent in Transoxiana dating from 8th c. Wall paintings in this site also reflect these type swords carried by Arabic soldiers. Another guard from al-Rabadah in Arabia with similar features dates 8-9th c.

Next, (p.79, #43) shows an Omani sword of 17th-18th c. with these kinds of cuff type features being discussed and well known on these sa'if Yemani, or Ibadi battle swords of Nizwa.
It states, "...sword hilts of this general type were popular over a long period of time and their documented associations suggest they are ultimately based on dhu-l-faqar the Sword of the Prophet." While the reference suggests these are of imprecise origins, suggesting possibly Mamluk /North African origins , some claiming 15th c. it seems most likely these are Ibadi and of Nizwa origin.

Jim McDougall · 28th August 2019, 06:30 AM

From "Arms and Armour of Arabia " Robert Elgood, 1994 p.15
"...there are a number of Arab sword types that are loosely referred to as nimsha or sa'if which are usually attributed to the Yemen by collectors and cataloguers on the basis that the weapons of the area are not well known and they are therefore unlikely to be challenged on the attribution".

Further (op. cit.) "...it is not clear at present as to how widespread was the usage of certain types of hilt in the Arab world".

Referring to very early times, "The Armies of the Caliphs", Hugh Kennedy, 2001, p.173 notes:
" Schwarzlose has collected references to swords in early Arabic literature.
The best swords come from India followed by those made in the Indian fashion (muhannad) in Yemen which, along with Syria was the most famous center of manufacture. "

* "Die Waffen der Alten Araber aus Ihren Dichtern Dargestellt"
F.W.Schwarzlose, Leipzig, 1886

Further the author notes the 'Baylamani' swords, which were from either Yemen or India.
Then the Mushrafi which were from either Yemen or Syria.
According to al Kindi, (d.870 AD) the best swords were made in Yemen or Khurasan.

On p.175 it is noted a number of swords of late Sassanian times with straight blades apparently with no hand guards.

While it is well known that Central Asia was anything but isolated with the Silk Road and constant incursions, it does not seem that Yemen (which includes the broader southern regions of Arabia) was isolated either. If their swords (primarily blades) were so highly regarded, and apparently traded, there had to have been regular exposure to many outside regions.

The hilt styles which were traditionally known through most of these regions certainly carried certain degree of influence in these trade dealings, so may well have become established in Yemen as well as in the number of regions in Central Asia as previously discussed.

It does seem that the Central Asian presence of these type hilts is pretty well established in Central Asian context into 9th c. period, while as has been noted, there is a distinct paucity of record of hilt types in the Yemen.
This does not preclude many of these hilts being from Yemen, but neither can examples with Bukharen or Central Asian attribution as per iconographic references.
It is not a matter of which influenced the other, but that they appear to have been inspired by similar influences.

Jim McDougall · 26th August 2019, 10:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kubur

Thank you Jim for your precise and so well documented response as always

To your question

IMHO I'll say yes of course.

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ghlight=mamluk

Thank you Kubur!
Iain thank you for entering on this, and for well illustrating that the elements and features on this form and its variants were broadly represented throughout many regions and cultural spheres over many centuries.
The key point we can take away here is that a direct link or an identifiable line of specific influence between the forms of different areas is not typically possible. This is especially the case where no linear chronological examples with provenance are extant which show such development.

Ariel, in my opinion, the Omani battle swords (sa'if Yemani) are certainly members of the same family of these type swords with the 'cuff' being a most notable feature.

24th August 2019, 09:25 PM	#1
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,281	You're right Kubur, this is a fun, and challenging discussion. I think the case for these spherical pommel, shouldered or flared guard integral with grip swords being Yemeni is of course well known. However, I don't think that it has been implied that somehow a Bukharen sword was brought back to Yemen, and suddenly all the Yemenis wanted such 'Bukharen' swords. The point desperately trying to be made here is that this form of hilt was widely adopted THROUGHOUT the Dar al Islam, and examples in Bukhara, as well as through CENTRAL ASIA reflect the same styling. While many of these examples are indeed Yemeni, they did not hold an exclusive patent on the design, and as often occurs, the influences did apparently diffuse via trade, diplomatic and other channels throughout regions from Arabia, the Middle East and Central Asia. To reiterate, Bukhara was not the SOURCE of the designs, but ONE of the many regions which in varying degree adopted them. In "Arts of the Muslim Knight" (ed. Bashir Mohammed) I attach three examples which show the collared hilt and spherical pommels and are identified as Central Asian and from 9th century. These are remarkably similar to the 'Yemeni' examples ; the Auctions Imperial example identified as 19th c. Bukharen; and others. In "Two Swords from the Foundations of Gibraltar" by David Nicolle, the attached plate (#28) shows a bronze sword as late 10th, early 11th c. from a shipwreck and it is noted to likely be from Armenia or Azerbijian. In the same article, a sword with remarkably similar style hilt is shown as Roman, 2nd c. AD. So my question is, is it possible that the styling of these hilts developed from a quite ancient form or group of similar hilt features, became popularly known, and were adopted in numerous cultural spheres ? So we are not saying that these hilts or affectations come FROM Bukharen influence, only that Central Asia apparently SHARED them, just as Yemen did. Attached Images Last edited by Jim McDougall; 25th August 2019 at 06:02 AM.

26th August 2019, 01:40 PM	#3
Iain Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Olomouc Posts: 1,717	These hilt styles, often made with cast parts and a "cuff" extension over the blade are part of a larger family with roots in central Asia. Similar hilts can be seen on reliefs documented in Bishapur and dated to the reign of the Sasanian ruler Shapur I (241-272). I have seen some speculation there may be a Chinese influence but I have not ever seen anything convincing on that front. Regardless, by the 9th century, this general form can be encountered throughout the Byzantine Empire as well, including areas of influence like Ukraine and Bulgaria. As has been already pointed out on this thread, within the Islamic world the form also became widespread including within Mamluk arms. The basic form typically sees a metal cylindrical grip, often multi-faceted, a separate pommel and a narrow guard, often with a "cuff". The components are often secured with brazing. These are an important overarching form which sees regional variations from central Asia, to Europe to Africa. The Yemeni examples are of course simply a long-surviving branch within the family tree. Attached Images Last edited by Iain; 26th August 2019 at 03:45 PM.

27th August 2019, 12:39 AM	#6
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Double posting, sorry. Last edited by ariel; 27th August 2019 at 01:00 AM.

27th August 2019, 12:08 PM	#9
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	Thanks to all involved so far and the excellent art works attached on the broad likelihood of influence involving the various swords mentioned . I noted earlier that the Mamluke weapons some illustrated in Yemeni museums have the sweeping wide shoulders similar to the project weapon and show that here.. The clearly later recruit to this form may well be the group of 4 weapons below with apparently later back street hilts but built in a similar fashion but added here for interest. Yemeni Jewish decorative hilts are often found on weapons pre the Jewish exodus of 1949 as depicted in the knife hilts shown below.. Attached Images Last edited by Ibrahiim al Balooshi; 27th August 2019 at 12:26 PM.

28th August 2019, 01:14 AM	#11
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,281	With reference to Ibrahiim post #51, in "Arts of the Muslim Knight" (Furissiya, ed. Bashir Mohamed, 2008) these two swords shown are most pertinent to examples he has posted. The first (p.37, #8) is a Samanid sword of 8th-9th century. It is noted swords with these U shape scabbard mounts excavated at Pendzhikent in Transoxiana dating from 8th c. Wall paintings in this site also reflect these type swords carried by Arabic soldiers. Another guard from al-Rabadah in Arabia with similar features dates 8-9th c. Next, (p.79, #43) shows an Omani sword of 17th-18th c. with these kinds of cuff type features being discussed and well known on these sa'if Yemani, or Ibadi battle swords of Nizwa. It states, "...sword hilts of this general type were popular over a long period of time and their documented associations suggest they are ultimately based on dhu-l-faqar the Sword of the Prophet." While the reference suggests these are of imprecise origins, suggesting possibly Mamluk /North African origins , some claiming 15th c. it seems most likely these are Ibadi and of Nizwa origin. Attached Images

26th August 2019, 04:50 PM	#4
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Is the " Omani battlesword" a member of the same Central Asian family or a traditional double-edged straight sword of pre-Islamic/early-Islamic "Aravian" weapon? Did straight early Egyptian Mamluk swords with bulbous pommels come from Bukhara ( Khiva, Samarkand etc)?

27th August 2019, 12:58 AM	#7
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	I cannot judge Bulgarian/ Bysantine relations, but I trust Teodor’s knowledge and judgement. As to the Yemeni/ Omani weapons, I have already fully agreed with him based on the same considerations. These “ Bukharan” swords do not look more than 200 years old at the most, and I am unaware of anything similar in Russian museums coming out of Central Asia despite their full control of that area since mid-19th century and even despite multiple lavish gifts of the local Khans and Emirs to the Tsar: they sent khandjars and shamshirs with Persian wootz blades and gold handles. I can fully believe that similar swords might have belonged to the Sassanian era, but after that, Persians ( the main influence on Central Asia) rapidly switched to curved sabers. To the point that they had to invent “revival swords” in the 19th. My money is on South Aravia, Yemen especially.

28th August 2019, 06:30 AM	#12
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,281	Some salient references to Yemeni attribution From "Arms and Armour of Arabia " Robert Elgood, 1994 p.15 "...there are a number of Arab sword types that are loosely referred to as nimsha or sa'if which are usually attributed to the Yemen by collectors and cataloguers on the basis that the weapons of the area are not well known and they are therefore unlikely to be challenged on the attribution". Further (op. cit.) "...it is not clear at present as to how widespread was the usage of certain types of hilt in the Arab world". Referring to very early times, "The Armies of the Caliphs", Hugh Kennedy, 2001, p.173 notes: " Schwarzlose has collected references to swords in early Arabic literature. The best swords come from India followed by those made in the Indian fashion (muhannad) in Yemen which, along with Syria was the most famous center of manufacture. " * "Die Waffen der Alten Araber aus Ihren Dichtern Dargestellt" F.W.Schwarzlose, Leipzig, 1886 Further the author notes the 'Baylamani' swords, which were from either Yemen or India. Then the Mushrafi which were from either Yemen or Syria. According to al Kindi, (d.870 AD) the best swords were made in Yemen or Khurasan. On p.175 it is noted a number of swords of late Sassanian times with straight blades apparently with no hand guards. While it is well known that Central Asia was anything but isolated with the Silk Road and constant incursions, it does not seem that Yemen (which includes the broader southern regions of Arabia) was isolated either. If their swords (primarily blades) were so highly regarded, and apparently traded, there had to have been regular exposure to many outside regions. The hilt styles which were traditionally known through most of these regions certainly carried certain degree of influence in these trade dealings, so may well have become established in Yemen as well as in the number of regions in Central Asia as previously discussed. It does seem that the Central Asian presence of these type hilts is pretty well established in Central Asian context into 9th c. period, while as has been noted, there is a distinct paucity of record of hilt types in the Yemen. This does not preclude many of these hilts being from Yemen, but neither can examples with Bukharen or Central Asian attribution as per iconographic references. It is not a matter of which influenced the other, but that they appear to have been inspired by similar influences.