Very unusual old keris , any ideas ?

Rick · 20th August 2019, 09:58 PM

As I said in my last post 'possibly' dugong.
So if it is not dugong I still believe it to be marine ivory.
As far as craftsmanship, well I guess that depends on the individual 'Craftsman' and this particular maker barely qualifies as one.

A. G. Maisey · 20th August 2019, 10:18 PM

You're probably right Kai, but I've only ever seen lines like that in horn. Sheep horn is very translucent, ordinary cows horn varies, as does kerbau horn.

In fact, as Rick has said, it looks like marine ivory, but I've handled a lot of marine ivory and never seen those "layer lines".

Ian · 20th August 2019, 11:47 PM

I think Rick is correct. Marine ivory of some sort--walrus, whale, dugong, hippo, ... The "layered" appearance is very marked on hippo ivory and might fit the appearance here. As others have already noted, not a high degree of craftsmanship in the carving, so probably not derived from an exotic/rare/precious source.

Ian

Rick · 21st August 2019, 12:55 AM

I think I see a core showing on the underside of the beak.
Need a better picture or better photoshop skills than mine.

Beside it is a picture of the core in the pommel of the avatar Kris that some of you use here.

Jean · 21st August 2019, 09:09 AM

Please see this hilt made from marine ivory and which has many "layer lines".

A. G. Maisey · 21st August 2019, 09:23 AM

Yes Jean, it sure does. I wonder why?

I've got a lot of marine ivory, not just hilts, but also carvings from netsuke size to ones as big as a very large whales tooth, I've also got some scrimshaw, and an unknown number of whales teeth that are still natural. I've not seen that layering effect on anything that I have. I wonder what causes it?

Jean · 21st August 2019, 12:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Yes Jean, it sure does. I wonder why?

I've got a lot of marine ivory, not just hilts, but also carvings from netsuke size to ones as big as a very large whales tooth, I've also got some scrimshaw, and an unknown number of whales teeth that are still natural. I've not seen that layering effect on anything that I have. I wonder what causes it?

Yes Alan it is very unusual, and the only one in my collection (some of my hilts show few layers on the sides). It most probably originates from Sulawesi (I bought it from a Bugis gentleman in East Kamimantan) but I don't know for sure from which tooth it is made. It does not seem to be made from elephant ivory (no cracks, etc.), nor from dugong (the tooth is too small), probably not from hippo (no visible interstitial line, etc.), and probably not from walrus (not common and no typical marble appearance). So which alternative remains? Sperm whale tooth but the aspect is not typical of it. Other opinions are welcome, I add the pic of the other side for reference.
Regards

chiefheadknocker · 21st August 2019, 09:28 PM

Thanks for all your input here , ive taken a couple more pics , im no expert but i dont think its bone , ive owned fijian whale tooth necklace (tabua) and the composition is more like this than bone

Rick · 21st August 2019, 10:46 PM

Inconclusive as far as that hole being a natural feature of the material.

21st August 2019, 12:55 AM	#4
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,339	I think I see a core showing on the underside of the beak. Need a better picture or better photoshop skills than mine. Beside it is a picture of the core in the pommel of the avatar Kris that some of you use here. Attached Images Last edited by Rick; 21st August 2019 at 01:17 AM.

21st August 2019, 09:09 AM	#5
Jean Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,740	Please see this hilt made from marine ivory and which has many "layer lines". Attached Images

21st August 2019, 09:28 PM	#8
chiefheadknocker Member Join Date: Dec 2014 Posts: 143	Thanks for all your input here , ive taken a couple more pics , im no expert but i dont think its bone , ive owned fijian whale tooth necklace (tabua) and the composition is more like this than bone Attached Images

20th August 2019, 09:58 PM	#1
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,339	As I said in my last post 'possibly' dugong. So if it is not dugong I still believe it to be marine ivory. As far as craftsmanship, well I guess that depends on the individual 'Craftsman' and this particular maker barely qualifies as one.

20th August 2019, 10:18 PM	#2
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,015	You're probably right Kai, but I've only ever seen lines like that in horn. Sheep horn is very translucent, ordinary cows horn varies, as does kerbau horn. In fact, as Rick has said, it looks like marine ivory, but I've handled a lot of marine ivory and never seen those "layer lines".

20th August 2019, 11:47 PM	#3
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,399	I think Rick is correct. Marine ivory of some sort--walrus, whale, dugong, hippo, ... The "layered" appearance is very marked on hippo ivory and might fit the appearance here. As others have already noted, not a high degree of craftsmanship in the carving, so probably not derived from an exotic/rare/precious source. Ian

21st August 2019, 09:23 AM	#6
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,015	Yes Jean, it sure does. I wonder why? I've got a lot of marine ivory, not just hilts, but also carvings from netsuke size to ones as big as a very large whales tooth, I've also got some scrimshaw, and an unknown number of whales teeth that are still natural. I've not seen that layering effect on anything that I have. I wonder what causes it?

21st August 2019, 10:46 PM	#9
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,339	Inconclusive as far as that hole being a natural feature of the material.