unusual small little moro kris for id please

chiefheadknocker · 10th August 2019, 08:13 PM

Hi all , i bought some ferric chloride to help etch the blade but after hearing about the concerns of it keep corroding the blade has made me think twice, and so ive held off , ive cleaned the blade a little more and heated it then used vinegar again , after leaving it for some time the blade turns a brownish colour ,once washed off it leaves a kind of patchy effect most the darkening effect on the out side of the blade leaving the centre pretty much untouched , ive repeated this process a couple of times but no signs of any twist core ,
i think its maybe to leave it now ?
Thanks for all your replies

Battara · 11th August 2019, 03:10 AM

Yeah I might leave it alone then, or perhaps try lime which is close to calamansee in the Philippines.

I disagree with Kai however, especially if the etch is in browns, yellows, and greys like when I etch. I will admit, most of the time the blade is in the greys, so I then leave it alone without further etch and use baking soda on the areas etched.

If you do use ferrous chloride, dilute it with distilled water, or else the reaction won't be clean.

Again, I have an early Sulu-Tawi Tawi kris wavy blade (1700s) without a twistcore or any other lamination (that I can see).

thomas hauschild · 11th August 2019, 06:09 AM

Well . Sometimes difficult. In principle the modern / clean steel with the Siemens-Martin or Bessemer process is invented around 1870. everything before must be a laminated steel. The standard between 1750 and 1870 was the puddle-process invented by Henry Cort ( also inventer of the rolling-mill-process) in that time the forgable/formable steel becomes more common.( and of course all the local steel production everywhere in the world, but that produces. Only laminated steel). Puddle-ovens counts in tenthousands in europe. Within this process the worker at the oven were able to produce something around 800 kilo a day with 3 workers per shift on 2 shifts 12 h each. A horrible job. During the process they take pieces of 10-20 kg with different carbon contend out of the oven, and laminate it directly to bigger pieces. The Eiffel-tower and railroad rails and bridges from that time are showing clear laminations. But this was still expensive. I have pieces of that bridges and they show clearly visible laminations.

After the invention of the „modern steel“ they were able to produce a cleaner steel 10 to within 30 min. Steel becomes more availiable and more common and the industrialisation starts with more speed. But in the first decades they need all the steel to build railroads to transport the steel to the cities. That needs steel for the railroads. They build up new steelplants, what also need a mass of steel. They allways run after to produce the massive rising needs for steel for ships, transportsystems like railroad, buildings and steelplants.

Due to that the puddle-process was still in use for other usages. In my local surroundings there were forges and puddle-ovens around to produce the material for scissors and other tools for the Solingen industry. A brand was e.g „Janus-steel“ ( the two faced god => two times raffinated ) They worked till 1910 1920 with this process. Later the steel coming from the new process becomes more availiable. One brand was „cast-steel“ on several blades. The blades were not casted but the prematerial comes from a casted , big block which was rolled out. A forging processs but the name „cast-steel“ was good for marketing to show that it is a clean/modern steel without laminations.

So the question is how long does it need for a clean piece of steel to travel over the world to reach the empu , who forged out a blade of it ? From my opinion best 1900 , more realistic 1920. just a opinion for more discussions. Admins may move this answer to a new post.

Best Thomas

Ian · 11th August 2019, 06:59 AM

Hi chief:

I would go with what you feel comfortable with.

Just to back up what Jose said about the absence of twist core on one of his archaic kris, attached is a picture of mine that was exhibited in the History of Steel Exhibition, Macao in 2006-2007 and it also has no twist core down the middle. Twist core may have been reserved for higher end pieces.

Regard,

Ian

P.S. Dimensions of my kris are very similar to yours:

OAL = 55.7 cm
Blade = 43.5 cm
Hilt = 12.2 cm

.

David R · 11th August 2019, 10:44 AM

Hiya Thomas, thanks for the essay above. It's easy for people to forget or never know just how late modern steel production appears, and how late traditional methods stayed on even in the west.

kai · 12th August 2019, 07:16 AM

Hello Jose,

Could you please show us the kris you mentioned? I don’t think we have discussed it yet? Thanks a lot!

Regards,
Kai

mross · 12th August 2019, 04:27 PM

Just to point out. In the Philippines they only used fruit to bring out the pattern in the steel. That is all that should be required to show a pattern. I'll further put my foot in it by saying anything other than the traditional method may produce results but they are not quite "right"

kai · 12th August 2019, 05:47 PM

Hello Thomas,

Thanks for your input!

In my experience steel perceived as unlaminated in antique blades usually proves to be quality steel extensively “washed” and essentially homogenized by multiple folding upon itself - as you know, this needs a very fine polish as well as a gentle etch to make these non-contrasting layers visible, possibly under magnification.

Regards,
Kai

Battara · 21st August 2019, 06:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kai

Hello Jose,

Could you please show us the kris you mentioned? I don’t think we have discussed it yet? Thanks a lot!

Regards,
Kai

Sorry it took so long, but here are the pictures of the kris I was mentioning. If you need better pictures please let me know. The hilt is a restoration of a hilt in horrible condition and the pommel had been remounted several times in the past. Even the asang-asang clamp had been replaced several times. However the sea ivory pommel is original.

Notice that the blade does not even appear laminated, much less a twist core. I believe this kris is from Tawi-Tawi.

chiefheadknocker · 12th August 2019, 07:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ian

Hi chief:

I would go with what you feel comfortable with.

Just to back up what Jose said about the absence of twist core on one of his archaic kris, attached is a picture of mine that was exhibited in the History of Steel Exhibition, Macao in 2006-2007 and it also has no twist core down the middle. Twist core may have been reserved for higher end pieces.

Regard,

Ian

P.S. Dimensions of my kris are very similar to yours:

OAL = 55.7 cm
Blade = 43.5 cm
Hilt = 12.2 cm

.

Thanks for uploading the pic of your similar sword , i have cleaned mine a little more and etched a few times with vinegar ,as the outcome was a little patchy i then used a soft wire wool to give the blade a more even look , ive added a picture of the outcome which i think is ok even though one side is pitted more than the other

11th August 2019, 06:59 AM	#4
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,361	Hi chief: I would go with what you feel comfortable with. Just to back up what Jose said about the absence of twist core on one of his archaic kris, attached is a picture of mine that was exhibited in the History of Steel Exhibition, Macao in 2006-2007 and it also has no twist core down the middle. Twist core may have been reserved for higher end pieces. Regard, Ian P.S. Dimensions of my kris are very similar to yours: OAL = 55.7 cm Blade = 43.5 cm Hilt = 12.2 cm . Attached Images Last edited by Ian; 11th August 2019 at 07:12 AM.

10th August 2019, 08:13 PM	#1
chiefheadknocker Member Join Date: Dec 2014 Posts: 143	Hi all , i bought some ferric chloride to help etch the blade but after hearing about the concerns of it keep corroding the blade has made me think twice, and so ive held off , ive cleaned the blade a little more and heated it then used vinegar again , after leaving it for some time the blade turns a brownish colour ,once washed off it leaves a kind of patchy effect most the darkening effect on the out side of the blade leaving the centre pretty much untouched , ive repeated this process a couple of times but no signs of any twist core , i think its maybe to leave it now ? Thanks for all your replies

11th August 2019, 03:10 AM	#2
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,272	Yeah I might leave it alone then, or perhaps try lime which is close to calamansee in the Philippines. I disagree with Kai however, especially if the etch is in browns, yellows, and greys like when I etch. I will admit, most of the time the blade is in the greys, so I then leave it alone without further etch and use baking soda on the areas etched. If you do use ferrous chloride, dilute it with distilled water, or else the reaction won't be clean. Again, I have an early Sulu-Tawi Tawi kris wavy blade (1700s) without a twistcore or any other lamination (that I can see).

11th August 2019, 06:09 AM	#3
thomas hauschild Member Join Date: May 2017 Location: Germany Posts: 141	Well . Sometimes difficult. In principle the modern / clean steel with the Siemens-Martin or Bessemer process is invented around 1870. everything before must be a laminated steel. The standard between 1750 and 1870 was the puddle-process invented by Henry Cort ( also inventer of the rolling-mill-process) in that time the forgable/formable steel becomes more common.( and of course all the local steel production everywhere in the world, but that produces. Only laminated steel). Puddle-ovens counts in tenthousands in europe. Within this process the worker at the oven were able to produce something around 800 kilo a day with 3 workers per shift on 2 shifts 12 h each. A horrible job. During the process they take pieces of 10-20 kg with different carbon contend out of the oven, and laminate it directly to bigger pieces. The Eiffel-tower and railroad rails and bridges from that time are showing clear laminations. But this was still expensive. I have pieces of that bridges and they show clearly visible laminations. After the invention of the „modern steel“ they were able to produce a cleaner steel 10 to within 30 min. Steel becomes more availiable and more common and the industrialisation starts with more speed. But in the first decades they need all the steel to build railroads to transport the steel to the cities. That needs steel for the railroads. They build up new steelplants, what also need a mass of steel. They allways run after to produce the massive rising needs for steel for ships, transportsystems like railroad, buildings and steelplants. Due to that the puddle-process was still in use for other usages. In my local surroundings there were forges and puddle-ovens around to produce the material for scissors and other tools for the Solingen industry. A brand was e.g „Janus-steel“ ( the two faced god => two times raffinated ) They worked till 1910 1920 with this process. Later the steel coming from the new process becomes more availiable. One brand was „cast-steel“ on several blades. The blades were not casted but the prematerial comes from a casted , big block which was rolled out. A forging processs but the name „cast-steel“ was good for marketing to show that it is a clean/modern steel without laminations. So the question is how long does it need for a clean piece of steel to travel over the world to reach the empu , who forged out a blade of it ? From my opinion best 1900 , more realistic 1920. just a opinion for more discussions. Admins may move this answer to a new post. Best Thomas

11th August 2019, 10:44 AM	#5
David R Member Join Date: Jan 2011 Posts: 1,116	Hiya Thomas, thanks for the essay above. It's easy for people to forget or never know just how late modern steel production appears, and how late traditional methods stayed on even in the west.

12th August 2019, 07:16 AM	#6
kai Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 3,255	Hello Jose, Could you please show us the kris you mentioned? I don’t think we have discussed it yet? Thanks a lot! Regards, Kai

12th August 2019, 04:27 PM	#7
mross Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 478	Just to point out. In the Philippines they only used fruit to bring out the pattern in the steel. That is all that should be required to show a pattern. I'll further put my foot in it by saying anything other than the traditional method may produce results but they are not quite "right"

12th August 2019, 05:47 PM	#8
kai Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 3,255	Hello Thomas, Thanks for your input! In my experience steel perceived as unlaminated in antique blades usually proves to be quality steel extensively “washed” and essentially homogenized by multiple folding upon itself - as you know, this needs a very fine polish as well as a gentle etch to make these non-contrasting layers visible, possibly under magnification. Regards, Kai