Buying at arm's length

MForde · 4th August 2019, 01:13 PM

Auction houses are notorious for poor accuracy. While I am firmly in the don't look for malice where ignorance is enough camp (they have a bewildering array of items to know, after all), I do believe that some of them honestly don't care a jot. Many don't even provide decent photographs.

Of course, this works both ways and while it can be a minefield one can also find the odd bargain.

A. G. Maisey · 4th August 2019, 02:19 PM

True, but I say again:- I am not addressing the inaccuracy of description, I am addressing the naming of materials as materials of worth, when they are not materials of worth, in other words misrepresentation.

To know what precious metals and precious stones are they need to be tested, so if something is named as a precious metal or precious stone then that implies that it has been tested, but I have encountered numerous cases where silver plate or mamas has been named as silver. If it had been tested then it would be known that it was not silver. So what we have is either a lie or gross stupidity.

If the auctioneer has not tested, then he does not know what the material is and it should be made clear that he does not know. An opinion should be identified as an opinion, not as a statement of fact.

Kmaddock · 4th August 2019, 10:24 PM

Hi
Interesting topic.
My personal mantra for purchasing, off topic but I taught I would include

do not spend more than 300 euro on an item unless I am certain
If more than more than 300 try and view in person
If an item has more than 3 flaws do not purchase it
Stop when I have reached my max price
Never trust auction descriptions or opinions always go with pictures
If something is under 50 and looks interesting take the gamble, sometimes I get lucky sometimes not
Mistakes are annoying but you learn from them
And of course
I regret more what I didn’t purchase than what I purchased badly
Regards to all
Ken

Will M · 5th August 2019, 05:00 AM

I find interesting items and put in low bids without looking until the auction is over. I recently won two items this way and both are worth 6x and more of what I paid in total. If you do not have a bid in you cannot win just like a lotto ticket but much better odds..

A. G. Maisey · 5th August 2019, 05:26 AM

Yes, you're right Will, buying at auction is a form of gambling, and just like any form of gambling you are best not to bid more than you are prepared to lose.

But then I don't gamble. Never have. I was given an excellent piece of advice by my grandfather when I was still a little kid:-

"Never gamble unless you own the game"

This came from a man who owned billiard rooms, poker machines, dice and card games, starting price bookmaking, in fact, every form of illegal gambling there was on offer, and who was a professional "negotiator" into the bargain.

Best advice I ever had.

Kmaddock · 5th August 2019, 12:01 PM

Ok I did use the word gamble in my post.

But is it really gambling when you are putting your knowledge up against others
If you know more than the house and the other bidders it is more perhaps outsmarting the house?

Auctioneer always wins as they get commission either way and have only to host the auction. Venue staff and advertisement costs is all they have in the game.

I have purchased rubbish for 50 euro worth nothing and similarly I have purchased v good items for 20

But I need none of what I purchase so it is all a bit of fun

Regards
Ken

A. G. Maisey · 5th August 2019, 01:22 PM

Ken, the problem is that you do not have the opportunity to use your knowledge.

If you go back to my opening post you will find that I am talking only about misrepresentation:- silver plate or mamas presented as silver, pastes presented as gemstones.

At no time have I been talking about the silly little errors and misunderstandings in general descriptions.

If you bid on the basis of silver and you get silver plate or mamas you have been flim-flamed. Conned. Lied to. You have paid too much.

That has absolutely nothing at all to do with knowledge, it has a great deal to do with the lack of knowledge, a lack deliberately, or perhaps because of laziness, created by the auctioneer.

But since we have strayed so far from my original intent in starting this thread and we are talking about appraisals on the basis of photographs, I will comment on that.

Very frequently I am approached by people to give opinions and valuations of keris. I get a couple of usually rather poor photographs, and I get asked the value, or description of that keris, often I get asked how old it is. Now, although I have something like 65 or 66 years experience in the study and collection of keris, I usually cannot tell too much at all from those photos, most especially I am not able to give any sort of approximately accurate valuation. If I cannot value nor appraise a keris from a photograph and no usable description, what chance has anybody else got? Unless of course they're psychic.

The auctioneer owns the game, not me, and that is why I do not bid at auction unless I can handle the goods beforehand.

4th August 2019, 01:13 PM	#1
MForde Member Join Date: Apr 2018 Location: UK Posts: 36	Auction houses are notorious for poor accuracy. While I am firmly in the don't look for malice where ignorance is enough camp (they have a bewildering array of items to know, after all), I do believe that some of them honestly don't care a jot. Many don't even provide decent photographs. Of course, this works both ways and while it can be a minefield one can also find the odd bargain.

4th August 2019, 02:19 PM	#2
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,015	True, but I say again:- I am not addressing the inaccuracy of description, I am addressing the naming of materials as materials of worth, when they are not materials of worth, in other words misrepresentation. To know what precious metals and precious stones are they need to be tested, so if something is named as a precious metal or precious stone then that implies that it has been tested, but I have encountered numerous cases where silver plate or mamas has been named as silver. If it had been tested then it would be known that it was not silver. So what we have is either a lie or gross stupidity. If the auctioneer has not tested, then he does not know what the material is and it should be made clear that he does not know. An opinion should be identified as an opinion, not as a statement of fact.

4th August 2019, 10:24 PM	#3
Kmaddock Member Join Date: May 2014 Location: Ireland Posts: 543	Hi Interesting topic. My personal mantra for purchasing, off topic but I taught I would include do not spend more than 300 euro on an item unless I am certain If more than more than 300 try and view in person If an item has more than 3 flaws do not purchase it Stop when I have reached my max price Never trust auction descriptions or opinions always go with pictures If something is under 50 and looks interesting take the gamble, sometimes I get lucky sometimes not Mistakes are annoying but you learn from them And of course I regret more what I didn’t purchase than what I purchased badly Regards to all Ken

5th August 2019, 05:00 AM	#4
Will M Member Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: In the wee woods north of Napanee Ontario Posts: 395	I find interesting items and put in low bids without looking until the auction is over. I recently won two items this way and both are worth 6x and more of what I paid in total. If you do not have a bid in you cannot win just like a lotto ticket but much better odds..

5th August 2019, 05:26 AM	#5
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,015	Yes, you're right Will, buying at auction is a form of gambling, and just like any form of gambling you are best not to bid more than you are prepared to lose. But then I don't gamble. Never have. I was given an excellent piece of advice by my grandfather when I was still a little kid:- "Never gamble unless you own the game" This came from a man who owned billiard rooms, poker machines, dice and card games, starting price bookmaking, in fact, every form of illegal gambling there was on offer, and who was a professional "negotiator" into the bargain. Best advice I ever had.

5th August 2019, 12:01 PM	#6
Kmaddock Member Join Date: May 2014 Location: Ireland Posts: 543	Ok I did use the word gamble in my post. But is it really gambling when you are putting your knowledge up against others If you know more than the house and the other bidders it is more perhaps outsmarting the house? Auctioneer always wins as they get commission either way and have only to host the auction. Venue staff and advertisement costs is all they have in the game. I have purchased rubbish for 50 euro worth nothing and similarly I have purchased v good items for 20 But I need none of what I purchase so it is all a bit of fun Regards Ken

5th August 2019, 01:22 PM	#7
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,015	Ken, the problem is that you do not have the opportunity to use your knowledge. If you go back to my opening post you will find that I am talking only about misrepresentation:- silver plate or mamas presented as silver, pastes presented as gemstones. At no time have I been talking about the silly little errors and misunderstandings in general descriptions. If you bid on the basis of silver and you get silver plate or mamas you have been flim-flamed. Conned. Lied to. You have paid too much. That has absolutely nothing at all to do with knowledge, it has a great deal to do with the lack of knowledge, a lack deliberately, or perhaps because of laziness, created by the auctioneer. But since we have strayed so far from my original intent in starting this thread and we are talking about appraisals on the basis of photographs, I will comment on that. Very frequently I am approached by people to give opinions and valuations of keris. I get a couple of usually rather poor photographs, and I get asked the value, or description of that keris, often I get asked how old it is. Now, although I have something like 65 or 66 years experience in the study and collection of keris, I usually cannot tell too much at all from those photos, most especially I am not able to give any sort of approximately accurate valuation. If I cannot value nor appraise a keris from a photograph and no usable description, what chance has anybody else got? Unless of course they're psychic. The auctioneer owns the game, not me, and that is why I do not bid at auction unless I can handle the goods beforehand.