Buying at arm's length

[Ian]

Hi Alan,

You have nailed the problems well.

In an attempt to address some of these issues, I'm presently working with an Australian auction that has twice-yearly auctions of firearms plus some edged weapons. I will have a number of items in their next auction and provided descriptions of those items for their catalogue. They have accepted my descriptions and my estimated prices for these items. They also asked me to look at several edged weapons submitted to the same auction. I provided descriptions and my estimated prices for these also. They have again accepted my descriptions and price recommendations for their catalogue.

The substantial majority of what other people submitted comprised decorative pieces made for those who travel. I was allowed to use terms such as "low quality," "non-functional blade," "decorative item," "silver wash," "village quality" and other descriptors that would indicate to a knowledgeable prospective buyer that these are likely to be inexpensive items.

Lots of two or three items can be a clue to their lack of quality and a desire for the organizers of the auction to move them in a group rather than waste precious auction time by selling them individually for little monetary return. Sometimes this can backfire, and a sleeper can leak through for a low price. I've been a beneficiary of that good fortune a few times.

I'm hoping that by knowing the directors of this auction, and having some input into the edged weapon descriptions and valuations that appear in their catalogue, may offer buyers a more realistic idea of the items for sale and their respective value. I'll let you know how it goes.

Ian.

[Green]

in the final analysis i think it boils down to "know what you buy". I've bought quite a few items from auction houses from USA and Europe and I hardly paid any attention to the description which can sometimes be completely wrong. But if i like what i see i will still bid for it.

my only worry is with regards to shipping as i don't know exactly how stringent the rulings are in these countries with regards to ivory materials even if they are clearly old but do not come with cites cert. my only recourse is just to request the shipper to word the description of the item creatively (but correctly), a prayer and hope for the best. so far no problem encountered (yet) and hope it will continue to be so

[mariusgmioc]

Yes, most of us encountered at least some, if not all of the problems mentioned above.

To my utter dissapointment not once, but many times I have encountered wrongly described items even with very prestigeous and reputable auction houses.

Not long ago, I purchased a sword from a reputable auction house. All the photos showed the sword and scabbard in good detail and everything seemed to be in good order. The sword was also described to be in good condition but...

... When I received the sword, I noticed the chappe of the scabbard was wrapped in tape. I thought it was for additional protection, but when I removed the tape the chape literally burst open into 3 parts.

I contacted the auction house and they asked me if I know a restorer, have it restored and send them the bill... So a lot of hassle and problems on my side. Now I will try to make them take the sword back for a full refund...

[Jean]

Originally Posted by Green

in the final analysis i think it boils down to "know what you buy". I've bought quite a few items from auction houses from USA and Europe and I hardly paid any attention to the description which can sometimes be completely wrong.

I agree with Green, and I bought the bulk of my collection "at arm's length" and with time I have learned to carefully select and assess the quality of the items on the basis of clear pictures. Of course I am mistaken from time to time but much less than years ago when I totally lacked experience. One surprising phenomenon these days is that some auction houses sell ivory-hilted krisses as bone or antler for avoiding Cites issues!
Regards

[A. G. Maisey]

In my initial post I mentioned two examples of what I believe could be construed as misrepresentation:-

1) material that is not silver presented as silver

2) material that in no way could be considered to be gems presented as gems.

this is the point I am trying to drive home.

I did not mention incorrect descriptions of type or style, I did not mention opinions. I mentioned material of little worth presented as material of worth. In other words misrepresentation.

Of course we need to have an understanding of the items that we may bid on, of course we need to assess quality as best we can from photographs that are very often completely inadequate. All this is a given, and it is not at all what I was writing about.

But how is it possible to know if one is looking at silver or polished mamas or silver plate from a photo, if experienced people need to test the material when they have it in their hands in order to know with certainty what it is?

How is it possible to differentiate between cubic zirconia and diamond when all you have to go on is a bad photograph?

This is what I'm talking about. Plain, pure, old fashioned lies.

Nothing at all to do with quality or "knowing what you buy", or incorrect general descriptions, however, when a considerable part of the value of the item that you expect to bid upon is tied up in the material from which it is made, then any naming of that material must be accurate.

If you buy from a photograph and a description that description needs to be accurate, and all the disavowals in the world that can be found the Terms section of an auction catalogue do not replace honesty and care.

In fact, it is many years since I purchased anything that I could not either handle, or that was not offered to me by an experienced person whom I trusted.

[MForde]

Auction houses are notorious for poor accuracy. While I am firmly in the don't look for malice where ignorance is enough camp (they have a bewildering array of items to know, after all), I do believe that some of them honestly don't care a jot. Many don't even provide decent photographs.

Of course, this works both ways and while it can be a minefield one can also find the odd bargain.

[A. G. Maisey]

True, but I say again:- I am not addressing the inaccuracy of description, I am addressing the naming of materials as materials of worth, when they are not materials of worth, in other words misrepresentation.

To know what precious metals and precious stones are they need to be tested, so if something is named as a precious metal or precious stone then that implies that it has been tested, but I have encountered numerous cases where silver plate or mamas has been named as silver. If it had been tested then it would be known that it was not silver. So what we have is either a lie or gross stupidity.

If the auctioneer has not tested, then he does not know what the material is and it should be made clear that he does not know. An opinion should be identified as an opinion, not as a statement of fact.

[Kmaddock]

Hi
Interesting topic.
My personal mantra for purchasing, off topic but I taught I would include

do not spend more than 300 euro on an item unless I am certain
If more than more than 300 try and view in person
If an item has more than 3 flaws do not purchase it
Stop when I have reached my max price
Never trust auction descriptions or opinions always go with pictures
If something is under 50 and looks interesting take the gamble, sometimes I get lucky sometimes not
Mistakes are annoying but you learn from them
And of course
I regret more what I didn’t purchase than what I purchased badly
Regards to all
Ken