Origin of this Yataghan? (With pictures!)

[sfenoid13]

Perfect demonstration that this Greek origin is a nonsense.
Where is the Greek if the maker is Ottoman Turkish and the user / owner Ottoman Tukish??
[/QUOTE]
The Greek is in region where this Ottoman Turkish owned and used his Yataghan. I am from Bulgaria, so is many generations of family, however I am not Bulgarian but rather Turkish. One of the many hundreds of thousand of Turks who were left behind when Ottoman Empire lost Bulgaria. Same happened with Greece. Bulgaria have tons of Yataghans , I have yet to see one Owens by a Slavic name, they are all inscribed to be owned by Turkish names, so are the makers. Same is true for “most” Greek yatagans too.

[kwiatek]

This probably comes too late, but all the marks posted here say “Mustafa”

[Kubur]

Originally Posted by kwiatek

This probably comes too late, but all the marks posted here say “Mustafa”

Very nice Greek name...

[ariel]

Ottoman Yataghans were assembled from mass-produced blades coming largely from Anatolia and Balkans ( Bosnia, mainly). Wherever they landed, their further fate was to fall into the hands of a local master who added the rest according to his local customs, tastes and traditions. This step defined the final product. That was the similar to the fate of other trade blades, such as Genoese, Styrian or generic Indian. Depending on the point of their final destination, they could be converted into Moroccan nimchas, Caucasian shashkas, Afghani pulwars, Mughals, Rajputs etc.


What is still original here is the blade ( generic “ Ottoman”) but a typical Greek/ Cretan crenellated niello silver tunkou/ Habaki- like appliqué at the root of the blade. That is all we have and all we can use in determining the ethnic origin of the final product.


How do we interpret it depends on our discretion. We can take the “path of the least resistance” that was used by Gozde Yasar, for whom everything yataghanish was “Ottoman, period”, or try and discern local decorative peculiarities. The latter would point toward Crete.

Finally, we are dealing not with certainties, but with probabilities. In a humongous and multiethnic Ottoman Empire nothing prevented a master of one ethnicity from using decorative technique of other people. That was a “ dime a dozen” approach in Imperial Russia with its multiethnic workshops geographically located in Tiflis and Vladikavkaz and spitting out thousands of “Caucasian” shashkas and kindjals of whatever ethnic pattern sold better at that moment or even creation of “Caucasian” - looking examples in St. Peterburg or Ukraine.

Perhaps the most accurate definition of that yataghan would be “ Ottoman in a Cretan style”.

[TVV]

If we classify swords and daggers according to the blades, then all the swords with triple fullered Solingen 19th century blades from the Sahel are German. Obviously, not a very good approach, and as has been discussed here the mounts are generally a much better indicator on where a weapon was used.

[Kubur]

Originally Posted by TVV

If we classify swords and daggers according to the blades, then all the swords with triple fullered Solingen 19th century blades from the Sahel are German. Obviously, not a very good approach, and as has been discussed here the mounts are generally a much better indicator on where a weapon was used.

I totaly agree with you
200%
The problem is that for you silver + niello = Greek
when in fact it is Turkish Ottoman
But i won't try to change your mind...

[Kubur]

Originally Posted by Kubur

I totaly agree with you
200%
The problem is that for you silver + niello = Greek
when in fact it is Turkish Ottoman
But i won't try to change your mind...

To be really honest with you if i refer to the yataghan posted at the very begining, i have to admit that it could be Greek also because very little survived from the original hilt... I still believe that some forum members have some problem to identify Turkish weapons, see post
http://vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=24813

[gp]

Originally Posted by Kubur

Very nice Greek name...

well quite some people in the Balkans during the Ottoman times converted to the new religion and hence took over the names accordingly.

Didn't that happen as well when Celts, Anglosaxons, Germanic, Baltic and Scandinavion regions and peoples were converted as well...?

So from a geographic point of view the name discussed might indeed be from an inhabitant of Greece.
Let's not forget after the Balkan Wars of 1911-1913 a lot of resettlement took place in quite some countries in South East Europe and with this quite some names which were present for four to six centuries.

Quite some edged weapons from Bosnia have the name Hassan on it, be it either the owner or maker's name....

And back on topic: the stamps / marks on the picture in cyrillic are the names Omar, Faruk, Rabomal Hasan, Rabomal Halu, Osman and Alu ( Alu being probably an elative case of Ali )

[Kubur]

Originally Posted by gp

well quite some people in the Balkans during the Ottoman times converted to the new religion and hence took over the names accordingly.

Hi
The problem was not about the blade origin or the blade maker but about the silver niello fittings that some members attribute to Greeks without any proof. And even maybe to Christian orthodox Greeks! Glups...
Of course we all know that Balkans were Ottoman provinces and partly Muslim.
We need more forum members from Turkey to balance a bit the knowledge from the Balkans to Turkey... And never forget that the Balkans were amongst the first provinces of the Ottoman empire so Greek means nothing before the Greek uprising...

[TVV]

Originally Posted by Kubur

Hi
The problem was not about the blade origin or the blade maker but about the silver niello fittings that some members attribute to Greeks without any proof. And even maybe to Christian orthodox Greeks! Glups...
Of course we all know that Balkans were Ottoman provinces and partly Muslim.
We need more forum members from Turkey to balance a bit the knowledge from the Balkans to Turkey... And never forget that the Balkans were amongst the first provinces of the Ottoman empire so Greek means nothing before the Greek uprising...

Maybe you need a Turkish forum, where the other members will agree with labeling everything from the Atlantic to the Pacific as Ottoman.

[Kubur]

Originally Posted by TVV

Maybe you need a Turkish forum, where the other members will agree with labeling everything from the Atlantic to the Pacific as Ottoman.

This is the problem Ottoman is not Turkish;
and Turkish is not Ottoman, it's more complicated...
If the Balkans are from the Atlantic to the Pacific , then you are perfectly right.

Forget about the Greeks: if you talk about an "epirus style" for some daggers, pistols and swords then I'll agree.
But again it will depend of what you put under this tag.

[cyten]

Originally Posted by gp

And back on topic: the stamps / marks on the picture in cyrillic are the names Omar, Faruk, Rabomal Hasan, Rabomal Halu, Osman and Alu ( Alu being probably an elative case of Ali )

just a small clarification, It is Omar, Khalil, Rabotal Hasan, Rabotal Khalil, Osman, and Ali

[gp]

a few more pics from "Die österreichisch-ungarische Monarchie in Wort und Bild" - "Dalmatien", Band 11 Wien, k. k. Hof- und Staatsdruckerei., 1892

[gp]

some more pics by Henri Avelot et J. de La Nézière - Monténégro, Bosnie, Herzégovine - Henri Laurens, Paris - no date (1894) - 248 pages

[gp]

for those whose "bible" is called Elgood, I can advise and do prefer when talking Balkan and specially for Bosnian cold weapons :

1. next to the already by me mentioned book old weapons in 56 pics "Starinsko Oruzje sa 56 slika u tekstu " by Curcic Vejsil (Vejsil Ćurčić (1868, Sarajevo – 1959, Sarajevo) published by Drzavna Stamparija
in Sarajevo 1926.
Although in Serbo-Croat, google translate does do the trick 4 U
2. "Jatagane" by Marija Šercer, original in Croation published in Zagreb but also availabe in German 1976 by Landeszeughaus in Graz Austria : Volume 5 van Veröffentlichungen des Landeszeughauses Graz
3. Balkans Arms , knives and daggers 18th-19th century by Tarik Kožo - , in 3 languages (!); Bosnian, German and English, 2010 Sarajevo; book of the old stock "balkan arms" deals with specimens of knives and knives from the last times of the Ottoman domination over the Balkans. Hereby some pics so you can recognize some of yours in yoyr collection

[gp]

And some more pics. One of them shows a smal knife which I boiught as a Serbian Lady's knife but actual isn't and conform Kozo is a little metal dagger for men...

[gp]

most of these above cold weapons were used when Habsburg after the Congres of Berlin occupied Bosnia in 1878 and caused a severe resurrection with many lives lost at both sides. This fierce fighting of the Bosniaks later caused the Austrians to create 4 infantery regiments in 1882 AKA Bosniaken or Bosnische=Herzegowinische Infanterie Regimente I - IV.

Enclosed pics of the fighting in Sarajevo by their leader Salih Vilajetovic AKA Hadzi Loja.

FYI: the bridge in the last picture was called after 1878 Latin Bridge by the Austrians, after 1918 its name became Princip Most (= Princip Bridge, after Gavrilo Princip) and is now called Latin Bridge again.

[gp]

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